Are Fighter Levels Always 'Associated' Levels for Outsiders?

[Sepulchrave II]

Like the question asks, really. Just wondering what people's thoughts are...

 

[James McMurray]

I would say that it was almost always the case. But if there is a race that has great magical abilities and crap for fighting (like the 2e Arcanadaemon) then I wouldn't associate fighter levels with them.

 

[Garnfellow]

I also think fighter is almost always associated, at least for the devils and demons -- especially after the 3.5 revisions. The only possible exception I can think of in the MM might be the succubus, and that's a maybe.

 

[Nifft]

It really depends on how you plan on using the specific Outsider.

A Succubus/Blackguard is going to regard Fighter levels as associated.
A Succubus/Sorcerer is not going to regard Fighter levels as associated.

For an Imp without a bow or reach weapon, Fighter levels are not associated.

For most Outsiders, though, Fighter levels would be associated, because most Outsiders are credible combat threats.

That's my opinion, -- N

 

[Zerovoid]

What's an "associated" level? Does the term have some special meaning I'm not familiar with?

 

[Steve Jung]

Associated levels enhance the monster's natural abilities. Non-associated levels don't.

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.
Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

 

[Sejs]

Depends on the outsider, I'd imagine. For most generic brute type outsiders, I could see Fighter being associated, or barbarian if they're non-lawful. I could easily see Rogue being associated for a sucubus or the like. Cleric for the upper ranks of celestials that already have built-in cleric spell casting abilities.

 

[hong]

Like the question asks, really. Just wondering what people's thoughts are...

Use judgement. Which outsider are you thinking of, and how are you planning to play it?

 

[Olive]

Use judgement. Which outsider are you thinking of, and how are you planning to play it?

But if you tell us, put it in spoiler tags so those of us who are SH fans won't read it be accident!

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Use judgement. Which outsider are you thinking of, and how are you planning to play it?

Lots of 'em, actually. Mostly demons - in order to differentiate between their roles. I've had to change my perception a bit e.g. a Succubus Rog3/Blk7 is not necessarily "a succubus with rogue and blackguard training" but more of "a powerful succubus, who is best mechanically represented by..." One of the things that pissed me off about the BoVD was the description of 'a balor with special fighter training'

That aside, I've been going over a number of outsiders that I've pitted against my Epic-level party, and when I've eyeballed the stat-block and compared it to the technical CR, it seems that Fighter should almost always count as associated.

I guess I'm asking if the high BAB, good Fort save and d8 hit points are sufficient to carry the decision of whether Fighter should be associated or not. After all, high skill points alone do not a rogue make, and a good Will save and a few spell-likes does not a sorcerer make.

Which brings me to another question. What about PrCs? Should they always be associated? The fact that an outsider can often automatically qualify for the class would suggest that it is 'directly associated.'

And, if you use the elite array, should the decision whether the class is 'associated' or not be made after you have assigned the stats? They will play directly into the strengths of a class, after all. If I assign a 17 Dex and 19 Int to a succubus (after racial adjustments), she becomes an effective finesse fighter and the duelist PrC begins to look very dangerous.

Sorry, it's just bugging me. I think the 3.5 system for adjudicating CR is still far better than 3.0.