Are gamers really that pathetic?

[eyebeams]

Y'know, I don't completely see eye to eye with Nisarg and his point of view, but at least I don't so blatandly mischaracterize what he's actually saying.

Would you care to explain what you see as a mischaracterization? Nisarg said that it's time to stop tolerating all these l00z3r gamers. He set one specific criteria having to do with whether folks are living with their folks or not as a sign of social dysfunction.

In what way is this not: "Gamers who don't fit my criteria are losers?"

And what is being used to support this position? A Really Popular essay on the Internet.

And I'll refer you back to my earlier post (about three or four pages ago) on the dubious "virtues" of pathological tolerance.

Pardon? In case you've just been skimming, I advocate *intolerance.* I don't care whether Cat Piss Man is out there. I'll never be gaming with him. I don't care about being surprised at CPM hanging out at a table at a con or something. I talk to players before committing.

And when I do hear about a reputed CPM from gamers I don't care for, I usually find the k3wl gam0r more irritating than the supposed CPM.

One of the great lessons in life is that you do not have to get along with nice people, and that you will not like many nice people. Once this is contemplated, you will, in the fullness of wisdom, be able to not game with people for no reason other than your gut feeling, and you will no longer need the prop of pretending that folks are nerdier than thou.

 

[Desdichado]

Would you care to explain what you see as a mischaracterization? Nisarg said that it's time to stop tolerating all these l00z3r gamers. He set one specific criteria having to do with whether folks are living with their folks or not as a sign of social dysfunction.

Actually, no, he didn't do that.

In what way is this not: "Gamers who don't fit my criteria are losers?"

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If you're not, as you seem to be saying below, advocating tolerance of the worst kind of social inadequacy at your table, what are you arguing about? Are you not saying the same thing then?

And what is being used to support this position? A Really Popular essay on the Internet.

Well, that's a dubious honor. It's not so much a really popular article as an obscure article that he happens to believe in.

Pardon? In case you've just been skimming, I advocate *intolerance.* I don't care whether Cat Piss Man is out there. I'll never be gaming with him. I don't care about being surprised at CPM hanging out at a table at a con or something. I talk to players before committing.

In which case I have no idea why you're arguing with him, and telling him things like "if you're complaining about it, you must be the worst kind of cat piss man out there." That's not even dodgy logic, that's no logic at all. That's merely a personal attack, and in light of your supposed agenda of intolerance, it makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you so defensive, that you'll jump to unsupported and unsupportable conclusions to shout him down, without even addressing his points, then?

And when I do hear about a reputed CPM from gamers I don't care for, I usually find the k3wl gam0r more irritating than the supposed CPM.

All of which is going... where again? Your entire argument, as near as I can tell, is "I don't like your attitude, so I bet you're cat piss man, and anybody you don't like is probably someone I will like, i.e., I'm rubber and you're glue, etc. ad nauseum." If the substance of your argument is actually something different than I'm understanding from that distillation, please spell it out for me again in plainer English; somehow I'm missing it.

One of the great lessons in life is that you do not have to get along with nice people, and that you will not like many nice people. Once this is contemplated, you will, in the fullness of wisdom, be able to not game with people for no reason other than your gut feeling, and you will no longer need the prop of pretending that folks are nerdier than thou.

See, yet again, instead of actually addressing the argument proposed (wow, what a concept!) you merely decide to meaninglessly insult the other guy by calling him a nerd. I've seen better arguments from my children. I mean, are you seeing where we're losing you here?

 

[eyebeams]

Actually, no, he didn't do that.

Well yeah, he did. He said that if you didn't move out by the time you were 24 or so, there was something wrong with you.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. If you're not, as you seem to be saying below, advocating tolerance of the worst kind of social inadequacy at your table, what are you arguing about? Are you not saying the same thing then?

I'm saying that there is no "good of the hobby." There are no common interests vis a vis the type of people you game with, and I find opbsessing over it to be an odious habit in of itself that is just a facet of the same old struggle for geek cred.

Well, that's a dubious honor. It's not so much a really popular article as an obscure article that he happens to believe in.

I see the GSF quoted all the time.

In which case I have no idea why you're arguing with him, and telling him things like "if you're complaining about it, you must be the worst kind of cat piss man out there."

If you're complaining about it in a fashion that does not describe specific cases but appeals to a purported trend, then you are, to be frank, part of the problem with gaming, not the solution. I met precisely *one* purported CPM that lived up to their reputation -- and I guest at cons pretty regularly. The rest are just at the wrong end of particularly juvenile social games.

Have I met socially bent folks? Yes I have. Have they ever intruded on my gaming? No. The kind of play I prefer demands mutual trust and a degree of discipline.

That's not even dodgy logic, that's no logic at all.

There are two possibilities:

1) There is X (a higher proportion of dysfunctional people in gaming compared to other hobbies) and Y (folks who want to sally forth and stop it).

or:

2) There is only Y, looking for attention in an odious fashion.

One explanation is simpler than the other. It's eminently logical.

That's merely a personal attack, and in light of your supposed agenda of intolerance, it makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you so defensive, that you'll jump to unsupported and unsupportable conclusions to shout him down, without even addressing his points, then?

You'll have to reiterate his points and the fashion in which I've supposedly dodged them in order for this to make any sense to me. You keep making assertions without backing them up with anything but your personal feelings.

Your entire argument, as near as I can tell, is "I don't like your attitude, so I bet you're cat piss man, and anybody you don't like is probably someone I will like, i.e., I'm rubber and you're glue, etc. ad nauseum." If the substance of your argument is actually something different than I'm understanding from that distillation, please spell it out for me again in plainer English; somehow I'm missing it.

You must ask yourself now if you are really committed to engaging what I am writing.

In any event, my points are simple:

1) By far, the most prevalent instance of social dysfunction in gaming consists of gamers dissing each other by saying that a given gamer/group/scene is lamer than them and theirs.

2) This is far more common than CPMs.

3) This happens because people are not picky about who they game with.

See, yet again, instead of actually addressing the argument proposed (wow, what a concept!) you merely decide to meaninglessly insult the other guy by calling him a nerd. I've seen better arguments from my children. I mean, are you seeing where we're losing you here?

What was that about an ad hominem again? I was just describing the cure for the 3 tiered problem above. If you believe that it applies to an actual poster, despite the fact that I have not mentioned any poster in particular, and you believe that it is strewn with insults that the actual text does not contain, then this exchange is no longer useful, because you have chosen not to respond to what I am actually writing.

 

[fanboy2000]

There are, I belive, three diffrent kinds of arguments going on now.

1. I don't game with socially inept people, but I don't care if any one else does.

2. I don't game with socially inept people, and, for the good of the gameing community, neither should you. Because if you do, then those people will continue to be the poster boys for hobby to the rest of the world.

3. I do game socially inept people (or, I am socially inept myself) and I don't care what anyone else thinks.


I fall into number one. And if I understand their aruments correctly, so does Joshua Dyal, eyebeams, and a few others.

Nisarg is the champion of the number 2, but will likely say he isn't because I use the term socially inept instead of anti-social. <sarcasm>I imagine he'll have some other small issue with the wording and will likely write a 1000 word post on the matter.</sarcasm>

And I think Olgar Shiverstone falls under number 3.

 

[Gnarlo]

Nisarg is the champion of the number 2, but will likely say he isn't because I use the term socially inept instead of anti-social. <sarcasm>I imagine he'll have some other small issue with the wording and will likely write a 1000 word post on the matter.</sarcasm>

And then he'll get Medieval on yo' ass. I mean Renaissance. Aw, screw it.

 

[Incenjucar]

Guys, deep breath. Calm down. You know how kitty's bladder starts aching if people get mad.

Maybe it would be wise if everyone just restated their positions without the blend of commentary?

 

[broghammerj]

Hey I throw in my two cents because that's all its worth.

first, American parents, as a group, aren't as good as Italian parents. Americans have a much higher rate of divorce, family ties and life are typically less robust, there are far greater cross-generational differences in education and opinion, and children are less valued.

Hey, my parents are divorced. I'm a doctor, my sister is a school teacher, and my brother is in the Army and just got back from Iraq (whether it's right or wrong he's still in prinicple, attempting to help our country). I think we've all contributed to society and my parents have helped make us who we are.

Someone correct me, but I thought I heard that the number of unwed parents were drastically increasing in many of the socialist Scandinavian countries.

I live in west Texas, and a Turkish friend of mine was appalled at the young ages people marry in this area, typically right after college. He explained that in his culture you can't get married unless you can buy your bride a house. Here almost all young people rent and cohabitate or marry without any consideration of such capital arrangements.

The average age of American marriage is getting later and later. So is the age of birthing children, except in the poor and underprivledged.

Most of the Turks are Muslim. I live in the middle of the highest number of Lebanese outside of Lebanon and a ton of various people from other Muslim cultures. My wife is an obstetrician. I guarentee you she delivers more young, MARRIED, arabic women in their teens with multiple children because that is the cultural expectation. I don't know where this age bias of your friend comes from. There is a proponderence of arabic men in their 20s marrying girls in their teens and bearing large numbers of children. Note, I really hate to generalize a group of people but if we're doing to it to Americans I simply use it as an example.

Lichtenhart,

If I could give you my take on the American mentality of moving out. It would be best encompassed by the so called "American Dream". If you work hard you can accomplish anything here in America. I think this is why American work hours have now exceded everyone elses in the world. Although most Americans know this to not be true, we are afforded a great number of opportunities.

This idea stems from many levels but most importantly that our poor immigrant parents came to start a new life from their home countries. There is an idea of independence and opportunity from us being a young country of 200+ years and fighting our revolution to win independence. The great migration west over the open plains allowed people to have their own piece of land if they wanted it. These all sort of end up as drives to succeed for ourselves. Your parents help you, but there is a time to break out on your own to find your success. In a sense, one does what they have done before you. There was also a great movement from an agrarian economy with the big family of farm hands to a urban based, service oriented work force.

Of the extended families I know, there are two types. One is the family that takes back in the elderly member who can no longer care for themselves due to health reasons. The other is a current immigrant family who has moved to the USA. They stick together as that is how they are raised and not everyone in the family speaks the language, knows the culture, etc. I find a lot of this changes when they start to have American born children.

As to the gamer geek portion of the thread

Yeah I'm a geek. I built my own computer, play RPGs, and know way to much trivia reguarding Star Trek. I never played a lot of sports in school. I was joe average in terms of popularity. I didn't date a lot in high school. My wife still thinks that after 7 yrs I am a dork. She doesn't understand my hobbies or makes any attempt except them anymore than the booth babes at the trade shows. She was the class president, star basketball player, etc. Trust me when I say we wouldn't have "hung out" in school.

You know what happened....people grew up including myself. People began to care less about sports, popularity, etc. I figured out you have to get on the social horse and if you get bucked off then you just dust off and get back up. Oh yeah, and I showered between those dustings

 

[Nisarg]

There are, I belive, three diffrent kinds of arguments going on now.

2. I don't game with socially inept people, and, for the good of the gameing community, neither should you. Because if you do, then those people will continue to be the poster boys for hobby to the rest of the world.

Nisarg is the champion of the number 2, but will likely say he isn't because I use the term socially inept instead of anti-social. <sarcasm>I imagine he'll have some other small issue with the wording and will likely write a 1000 word post on the matter.</sarcasm>

Hehe, actually fanboy, you more or less hit the nail on the head as far as my position.. socially inept and anti-social are de jure different, but de facto the same in this case, as the TYPE of social ineptitude I'm talking about in the case of these CPMs is often not something they are doing willingly, but the end result is an anti-social behaviour anyways. In some cases they want to be socially well-adjusted, but they just can't. In fact, "socially maladjusted" might be the best description.

Nisarg

 

[S'mon]

These guys exist but mostly you (if you're not one) will only see them at Conventions, esp US Gencon - in fact one British example told me he flew to US especially for Gencon. Maybe because UK Gencon has no Booth Babes (*sigh*)
The reason you'll only see them at Cons, esp Gencon, is that they have very poor social skills and so rarely have friends who they can game with, and if they answer cold-call ads to continuing games they usually quickly find they don't fit in with the group (possibly not admitted, or asked to leave later), hence they need to go to Cons to get their RPing fix (and see babes). This is a bit sad, OTOH they get a lot of enjoyment from RPG products, even if they never get to play, and with high disposable incomes (no wives, girlfriends or children, often still living w parents well into adulthood), their money helps fuel the RPG economy.

 

[Beowolf]

alot has been said here and a lot(most?) of it has been off topic. many very good and insightful ideas have been discussed.

in regards to the causes of the social problems in our cultures, we should first look at the fact that our common society ( what it considers "normal" people involved in "normal" hobbies/activities) is entirly foucused on appearance and money whereas gamers focus on creativity and inteligence. because the common society is now the majority other scocial groups are automatically seen as inferior or lame. Most of us (gamers) have this preconception because it is shown to us everyday in all forms of media. so when we see a gamer who has social problems we assume the worst of the individual because of the hobby he is involved with even though we normaly accept people in the hobby because we are in it aswell. take said individual and place him in a common scocial group he would be seen as weird or unusual but accecpitbal because he is enthusiastic about sports or fashion.
if we looked deeply in all of the common social groups we would find individals with the same problems as similar individuals in gaming but find also that the common scocial groups accept them but mabye see them as eccentric while if he was involved in gaming he would be seen as a freak even by fellow gamers.

i have seen this frist hand. on my football team there are the typical jocks and skater punks but also some who would fall under the socialy mal-ajusted colum but because they are on the team and in the circle they are accepted for the most part(beyond additional ribbing or gossip slander)
i could be considered one of the weirdos on the team because i don't socialise with many of them but outside of that most people would consider me normal aside from my gaming habit.


looking at our over acceptance of these mal-ajustants in regards to what is stated in the GCF. although it maybe true at least we have a social group that can accept anybody regardless of race or culture and/or socual problems. think about it how many people in gaming society would not be accepted anywhere in the common scocial groups but are seen as normal to fellow gamers



i know my ideas my have drifted a lot and i did not cover much but i will probably refine them and add more later. its late and i have three more days of hell week to get through!