Are Gognards killing D&D?

[Reynard]

If the DVD player allowed me to create my own movies and music, I would have little need to buy DVDs. Same thing with RPGs. More people buy crunch than fluff specifically because they can come up with their own fluff much more easily than they can come up with their own crunch.

Give me two hours and enough inspiration and I'll write up a campaign world outline that will serve my group for a year or more. It's unlikely I could come up with a comprehensive RPG engine if you gave me a year.

Give me the tools and I can make my own worlds that fit my gaming style. It's very unlikely someone will ever come up with a setting so compelling that it makes me not care about the rules and crunch underneath when I'm the GM.

I think the D&DI is an attempt to alleviate this inherent problem: WotC knows the player base is bigger than the consumer base, and they want to turn that player base into the consumer base. One way to do that is through the "play anytime, anywhere" promise of the VT as well as the constant crunch update aspect, plus "free" adventure and what not through on-line Dungeon and Dragon (let's face it -- very few people are likely to sign up for D&DI just for the mags, but that has the adavnatge that they are going to see that material as "bonus" content and it will actually increase the customer goodwill).

IF D&DI costs 12 bucks a month, that is the equivalent of every subscriber buying 4 hardbounds a year, on top of books they actually buy and the books bought by the player/customer base that has no interest in the D&DI (i.e. the older folks). Assuming they don't flub it with terrible technology, it is a brilliant move.

Still, the thing I don't understand is how WotC is going to hook the "new players" that are going to be necessary to replace the 5, 10, 20 percent (or whatever) that feels that 4E just isn't D&D anymore and stays with 3.x because a0 they have more books than they'll ever use, and b) still be able to buy new books because the OGL can't be revoked, so someone is going to support it.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

If the DVD player allowed me to create my own movies and music, I would have little need to buy DVDs. Same thing with RPGs. More people buy crunch than fluff specifically because they can come up with their own fluff much more easily than they can come up with their own crunch.

Give me two hours and enough inspiration and I'll write up a campaign world outline that will serve my group for a year or more. It's unlikely I could come up with a comprehensive RPG engine if you gave me a year.

Give me the tools and I can make my own worlds that fit my gaming style. It's very unlikely someone will ever come up with a setting so compelling that it makes me not care about the rules and crunch underneath when I'm the GM.

True .... and that's precisely the flaw in the whole RPG industry as a business model, which causes the endless production of new editions and massively-inflating splatbook power curves. They're the only things that people will buy, and yet their very production 1) ticks off the consumer base and 2) contributes to the continuation of the edition treadmill, which in turn has the potential to alienate the very people whose buying habits are causing the edition treadmill to exist in the first place.

In a way, it must be the most frustrating industry in the world to work in .... :\

 

[WayneLigon]

True .... and that's precisely the flaw in the whole RPG industry as a business model, which causes the endless production of new editions and massively-inflating splatbook power curves. They're the only things that people will buy, and yet their very production 1) ticks off the consumer base and 2) contributes to the continuation of the edition treadmill, which in turn has the potential to alienate the very people whose buying habits are causing the edition treadmill to exist in the first place.

Obviously, though, it does not. It doesn't tick people off; they love it. That's why the entire way it's done exists in the first place. People want more Cool Stuff and New Stuff and they'll pay to get it. If the way things were done actually ticked people off, they wouldn't buy new crunch books.

Equally obviously, the procedure itself is not going to alienate a sufficient number of people to matter. Unless a company does something horribly wrong for some reason, they're going to more than make up for the people leaving by attracting a greater number of new customers than they lose. For every person that doesn't buy 4E because (just to pull an example out of the air) elves are no longer short, I'm pretty sure they'll attract an equal number that go 'Thank God elves in D&D are now taller than humans; I can finally play D&D (again)'.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Obviously, though, it does not. It doesn't tick people off; they love it. That's why the entire way it's done exists in the first place. People want more Cool Stuff and New Stuff and they'll pay to get it. If the way things were done actually ticked people off, they wouldn't buy new crunch books.

But people also get frustrated with the constant revision, of losing things that they used to think were cool. I'm guilty; I fell for the shiny and bought 2E splatbooks and the early 3.5 splatbooks. Never again. I'm ticked off at myself for falling for the lure.

I AM one of those people who contributed to the problem, got sick of it, and is now getting off the edition treadmill. I don't think I'm the only one.

 

[JohnSnow]

But people also get frustrated with the constant revision, of losing things that they used to think were cool. I'm guilty; I fell for the shiny and bought 2E splatbooks and the early 3.5 splatbooks. Never again. I'm ticked off at myself for falling for the lure.

I AM one of those people who contributed to the problem, got sick of it, and is now getting off the edition treadmill. I don't think I'm the only one.

A certain level of customer "fall off" is inevitable. I guess you're just in that group for the 3e to 4e transition.

And you're right, everyone eventually either embraces the ever-changing nature of the game or chooses to "get off the treadmill" in one way or another. However, the "edition treadmill" is only a "problem" if you keep buying every splat book on the market. In terms of money, D&D is actually a pretty low-investment hobby. All my 3e books cost me less than a year's worth of stuff for many of my other hobbies. Ignoring setting-specific stuff, 3e had, what, 40-50 books? If memory serves, there were about a dozen for 3.0 and 3 dozen or so for 3.5. And most of those are VERY optional (some are repetitive).

Even at $40 a piece (and they weren't all that much), that's less than $2000. And by any standard, that's a bargain for 8 years of a hobby.

It's ironic that many people are jumping off the edition treadmill just as WotC seems to be trying to change their business model. D&D Insider sounds like it may be the way for WotC to set it up so that they don't have to constantly deluge the market with supplements just to keep the line profitable.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Even at $40 a piece (and they weren't all that much), that's less than $2000. And by any standard, that's a bargain for 8 years of a hobby.

It's not about the money. It's about never having had the chance to use so much of what there was. I was excited about the chance to play an Aristocrat1/WizardX, solving problems with his Knowledge skills or social skills as much as with his spells. I was excited about the chance to play an Aasimar Bard/Paladin with Perform (Dramatic Heroism), Inspiring Courage by drawing his sword and shouting "Villain, prepare to face judgment!" I was excited about the hellreaver PrC from Fiendish Codex II, or the cavalier from Complete Warrior. I got into the habit of looking at classes and PrCs and getting excited about builds. No more. I'm just not going to be interested in new mechanics anymore. I can play a paladin in BECM, and describe the dramatic challenge as how he casts his Bless spell.

I got to play ONE 3.5 character from 1st to 20th level. One for a one-shot at 14th level. No other 3.5 PCs. And I DM'ed a campaign that went from 2nd to 12th.

There is so much from 3.5 that I had wanted to explore. Will the 4E paladin be more fun for my style of gaming than the 3.5 one? Well, not being given enough time to ever play a 3.5 paladin, I'll never know. Same for cleric, rogue, bard, fighter, and, oh yeah, every single PrC. Too bad I'll never get the chance to know if those were cool things or not.

It's like I was inundated with material, much of it that looked really fun, but before I got a chance to try it out, it was taken away. So from now on, I am not going to look for new crunchy material. It will just get taken away again before I have a chance to explore even 5% of it in a game.

 

[Hairfoot]

I got into the habit of looking at classes and PrCs and getting excited about builds. No more. I'm just not going to be interested in new mechanics anymore.

I've had an interesting journey through 3E. The whole character-build thing got me by the balls and for a couple of years I just loved the mechanical challenge of it. Eventually, though, I found that I was creating optimised PCs with stories and flavour built to suit the feat/skill/equipment combo I'd chosen. The moment I went back to creating character concepts before mechanics, 3E lost a lot of its shine, and I began hankering for older editions.

For that reason, I'm going to be interested in 4E if it provides simplified mechanics that make the game run faster and with less riffling through books for obscure rules. If it doesn't do that, I'll probably be a permanent C&C or 1e convert.

 

[Ty]

Has anyone else here examined some of the proposed "innovations" for 4th Edition on the crunch side in the context of the optional rules proposed in the Unearthed Arcana?

 

[Fifth Element]

True .... and that's precisely the flaw in the whole RPG industry as a business model, which causes the endless production of new editions and massively-inflating splatbook power curves. They're the only things that people will buy, and yet their very production 1) ticks off the consumer base and 2) contributes to the continuation of the edition treadmill, which in turn has the potential to alienate the very people whose buying habits are causing the edition treadmill to exist in the first place.

I've seen that argument before. But if it were true (companies only producing books people don't really want), then why does the whole industry, as you say, do it? Said industry would quickly die, since the companies would not make any money.

That doesn't seem to respect the customers: maybe they buy that stuff because they actually enjoy it, not because they're sheep who love shiny things?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I've had an interesting journey through 3E. The whole character-build thing got me by the balls and for a couple of years I just loved the mechanical challenge of it. Eventually, though, I found that I was creating optimised PCs with stories and flavour built to suit the feat/skill/equipment combo I'd chosen. The moment I went back to creating character concepts before mechanics, 3E lost a lot of its shine, and I began hankering for older editions.

For that reason, I'm going to be interested in 4E if it provides simplified mechanics that make the game run faster and with less riffling through books for obscure rules. If it doesn't do that, I'll probably be a permanent C&C or 1e convert.

I dont see why you can't make characters less now, instead of just numbers.

If anything the current edition fired my creatioon more, due to less cookie-cutters pc, customisation and all.

Roleplayers customise and optimise also. To fit a concept.