Are HPs Worth the Realism?

[Tequila Sunrise]

As I work on my homebrew system, I've come to an impasse. My goal in designing this system is to strike a balance between realism and simplicity (two things that d&d is hit-or-miss with) in a setting where characters can become truly heroic.

I've designed a hit point system that allows higher level characters to be heroically tough. It involves five injury categories (from Healthy to Dead); if your character is in any of the middle three categories, they loose a small amount of HP each round to represent blood loss. Every time a character goes down a category, he/she has to make a progressively higher Con check to remain conscious.

Now here's my problem: I've gone to a lot of trouble to make this HP system simple and yet lend the game a semblance of realism. But is it really worth it? When you play an rpg, does it lend to your excitement if your character could end up dying just from bloodloss? Or do questions like "why do I need a special feat/magic item to cause my enemy to bleed?" not hinder your game experience? Have you ever found a system that struck a good balance between the two? (I've played using vitality/wounds, but I felt that it took away most of the characters' heroic-ness while only lending a small amount of realism)

TS

 

[Terraism]

Personally, I'd be interested. Can't say I'd use it, but interested. I tend to prefer grittier games (currently, I'm running a high-action, swashbucklery game, so I'm running with hit points plus a bit extra, since that fits the feel, but it's not usually the case,) and more 'realistic' hit point mechanics tend to help reinforce the gritty feel. That said, I've tried about a half-dozen different options, and so far, anyway, I haven't found one that works smoothly without drastically altering things (like, say, spells.)

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Yes, that is the question we house-rulers must wonder, in the dark of the night, as we balance classes and contemplate new rules' shifts. But we can't know, and nor can your brothers and sisters across the network. The only people who can decide if it was worth your time are your players and yourself.

Other than the Dao of D&D, though, my advice is to make sure that the healthy category includes a fair number of near misses and last-minute dodges.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

The least fuzzy way of doing it, in my humble opinion, IS heroic toughness, or probability-based injury (Fort saves and all that), regarding health.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I've also toyed with the idea of injury progression before.

Global appeal and simplicity are some of D&Ds great strengths, though it would be great to intro just a little more realism sometimes. You just have to be careful that you don't over-step the line between realism and making a game that only accountants can enjoy.

Still, it seems a little silly to me that there are absolutely no ill-effects whatsoever to a character who loses practically all of their HP, but is still in positive territory.

Something that may work, without having too much of a negative impact is introducing injury conditions based on health, using Full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 and 0 HP.

For example, if a character has 100 HP, they receive:

No Penalty above 75 HP.
-1 Penalty to all actions when on 75 HP or less (3/4 health).
-2 Penalty to all actions when on 50 HP or less (1/2 health).
-4 Penalty to all actions when on 25 HP or less (1/4 health).
Unconsciousness when on 0 or below.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

IMHO the rolling for passing out due to bleeding isn't any fun, altho the idea of a wound track does indeed have merits. My favorite is the CP2020 system, which Ken Hood unintentionally recreated in his Grim-n-Gritty version 3 and version 4

My variant on Ken's system more closely models CP2020.. there are 10 stages, and each time you take damage you have to check for KO. In the latter stages {5 - 10} you also have to check for death.

This makes for potential heroics while still being gritty.. as your character might continue to fight far past what most others would collapse at.

Thread on Version 3 {free..document in the thread}

Thread on Version 4 {not free, pdf available for purchase}

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

You're a CP2020 player too. Haha! That's what I based my comments on above ^.

Because CP2020 is skill-based and not level-based, it is a much more lethal system. Though there are still many elements that could easily be adopted to add to the realism of the typical D&D game.

However, there's also a need to ensure that you don't end up crippling the game when the party tank on almost 100% HP takes a small wound and passes out like a little girl, taking away 1/3 of the party's firepower.


Primitive Screwhead... I'd love to play in a CP2020 PBP game if there was one. I'd happily GM a game, though finding reliable players seems to be a bit of a problem.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Well I'll go into a little more detail on my HP system, as it appears that others might be interested.

First, all characters have hit points that are divisible by 4 so that they fit neatly into the 4 pre-death Injury categories:

Healthy (3/4+1 to full HP): You're fine.

Injured (1/2+1 to 3/4 HP): You're bruised and scraped and so lose 1 hp each round. Additionally, if you take too many actions (equivalent of a full-round) you lose another 1 hp per round. You take a -1 penalty on all checks and DCs. Upon entering this category you make a DC 5 Con check to stay conscious.

Disabled (1/4+1 to 1/2 HP): You're moderately wounded and so lose 2 hp each round. Additionally, if you take too many actions (equivalent of a full-round or standard) you lose another 1 or 2 hp per round. You take a -2 penalty on all checks and DCs. Upon entering this category you make a DC 10 Con check to stay conscious.

Dying (1 to 1/4 HP): You're on the verge of death and so lose 3 hp each round. Additionally, if you take too many actions (equivalent of a full-round, standard or move) you lose another 1, 2 or 3 hp per round. You take a -3 penalty on all checks and DCs. Upon entering this category you make a DC 15 Con check to stay conscious.

Dead (0 HP): In case you were wondering, you're dead.

Maybe this will help you make a better judgment about how 'worth it' the system is.

 

[Pyrex]

There are two published options you might look at:

The new Star Wars Saga Edition has HP-threshold-based progressive-wound mechanic that inflicts cumulative penalties.

Mutants and Masterminds has the characters make a "Damage Save" when they would take damage (IIRC, DC roughly determined by how much damage the attack would deal) with success meaning they shrug off the blow and failure (by amount failed) determines which wounded state they end up in.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

However, there's also a need to ensure that you don't end up crippling the game when the party tank on almost 100% HP takes a small wound and passes out like a little girl, taking away 1/3 of the party's firepower.

Any death spiral mechanic has this issue, altho my experience with CP2020 is that the tanks tend to last much longer due to thier BOD {like DR for those D20'ers here...}
Had one character even survive a .50 shot to the head... with lots of luck and some damn good rolls. Of course this same character was already known for being KO'd by the second round of combat.

Long time ago I had a DM run 'FantasyPunk', a homebrew game using CP2020 rules with some additions for a Rolemaster-style spell list caster... it was awesome. Unfortunately the DM ran into a divorce and dissapeared before we could get copies

Primitive Screwhead... I'd love to play in a CP2020 PBP game ....

I have never been sold on the PBP games, altho I would be willing to join in on one. Unfortunately a similar divorce deal shredded a large part of my library and I have yet to recompile my collection....its harder to justify the expense when I don't have a group to run for...
Guess I need to drop by the Source again to see if thier back-copies are still there