D&D 4E Are humans balanced in 4e?

Mengu

First Post
Mengu- why not human rogues, fighters, warlords, or barbarians?

Because it's cooler to have a rogue who can reroll an important missed encounter or daily power, a fighter who can breathe and mark multiple targets, a warlord who can teleport to an advantageous position to aid his allies, or a barbarian who can use second wind without sacrificing a standard action.

It's just that the other race choices have some more active options than humans. Humans have passive defense bonuses (+1 defenses, and a feat that gives +1 saves), passive bonus feat which merely puts them 1 feat ahead of everyone else, and an at will option which will typically be used in place of another power, rather than in conjunction with. Humans are a passively good race. Action surge alone doesn't quite make up for all the nifty active encounter powers of the other races. This I think is what makes them less desirable when one sits down to pick a race.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

keterys

First Post
The more at-wills that are released, the more valuable the human's at-will becomes. A human fighter was a mostly wasted 3rd at-will until Martial Power, but (for example) Cleave, Footwork Lure, and Tide of Iron (or Crushing Surge or Brash Attack) in one package is extremely nice.
 

Doctor Proctor

First Post
Because it's cooler to have a rogue who can reroll an important missed encounter or daily power, a fighter who can breathe and mark multiple targets, a warlord who can teleport to an advantageous position to aid his allies, or a barbarian who can use second wind without sacrificing a standard action.

It's just that the other race choices have some more active options than humans. Humans have passive defense bonuses (+1 defenses, and a feat that gives +1 saves), passive bonus feat which merely puts them 1 feat ahead of everyone else, and an at will option which will typically be used in place of another power, rather than in conjunction with. Humans are a passively good race. Action surge alone doesn't quite make up for all the nifty active encounter powers of the other races. This I think is what makes them less desirable when one sits down to pick a race.

I think the problem is that you're looking at racial options and seeing "Hey, cool power", whereas the Humans don't have one. While that's true, I think there's some things you're overlooking, like feats. There's a ton of Human only feats that are pretty powerful, and only they get access to. Think of that, in a way, as their "racial power".

Timely Revival (Epic), for example, allows you to make your death save at the start of your turn. This means that, should you roll a 20, you'll be up and awake and back into action with the ability to still take your turn instead of just laying there for another round.

Or what about Avenging Spirit (Paragon)? You gain an action point that you must use before the end of your next turn or the action point is lost. This is a great ability to have for when things go bad in an encounter. It could be the one that swings the tide. Imagine, for example, that one of your leaders goes down. Now there's no healing to get them back up, but you now gain an action point that you can use to feed them a potion or do a Heal skill check...and you can still attack that turn.

Granted, you might still call some of these "passive" abilities, but that doesn't mean they're weaker. Just because you like to build for offense, doesn't mean that everyone does. Sometimes having a higher defense can keep you alive longer than marking 4 enemies with Dragonbreath will. Plus, with the feats, a lot of them work many times during an encounter, not just once. So yeah, while they might not get a cool racial power, they get a lot of other little bonuses that aren't as limited in the number of times they can use them. Plus, since they have one extra feat, they can even take one of these cool Human-only feats and still mirror the feat progression of any build you want. This means you don't necessarily have to sacrifice anything compared to the other races to get some of these extra bonuses.
 

Mengu

First Post
The more at-wills that are released, the more valuable the human's at-will becomes. A human fighter was a mostly wasted 3rd at-will until Martial Power, but (for example) Cleave, Footwork Lure, and Tide of Iron (or Crushing Surge or Brash Attack) in one package is extremely nice.

This is true. Similar statement can be made about the half-elf diletante power.

Timely Revival (Epic), for example, allows you to make your death save at the start of your turn. This means that, should you roll a 20, you'll be up and awake and back into action with the ability to still take your turn instead of just laying there for another round.

Or what about Avenging Spirit (Paragon)? You gain an action point that you must use before the end of your next turn or the action point is lost. This is a great ability to have for when things go bad in an encounter. It could be the one that swings the tide. Imagine, for example, that one of your leaders goes down. Now there's no healing to get them back up, but you now gain an action point that you can use to feed them a potion or do a Heal skill check...and you can still attack that turn.

Unfortunately these hold little to no value for me. If I'm creating a first level character, I don't want to sit around and wait for that cool 21st level feat I might enjoy. I want to enjoy the 1st level and every level thereafter that I'm playing.

Just because you like to build for offense, doesn't mean that everyone does. Sometimes having a higher defense can keep you alive longer than marking 4 enemies with Dragonbreath will.

Actually I don't necessarily need offensive powers. I just like active ones. If I might play a Tiefling warlock who doesn't mind nuking himself with scorching bursts thanks to fire resistance. Dragonborn breath on a fighter is a defensive ability for the party, not an offensive one. Halfling second chance is a defensive, yet active ability I get to decide when to use. Dwarven second wind is an active and defensive ability. Defense or offense have little to do with active use.

Plus, with the feats, a lot of them work many times during an encounter, not just once. So yeah, while they might not get a cool racial power, they get a lot of other little bonuses that aren't as limited in the number of times they can use them. Plus, since they have one extra feat, they can even take one of these cool Human-only feats and still mirror the feat progression of any build you want. This means you don't necessarily have to sacrifice anything compared to the other races to get some of these extra bonuses.

Again to re-itterate, I'm not claiming Humans are weak or underpowered. Just not as interesting and appealing as the other races, which to me is not the best design. I understand they tried to keep humans versatile so all their benefits would apply to every class (hence the third at-will), but this same design element makes them fade to the background in comparison to other races which excel for certain classes. I think a better approach would have been to design humans with a role based encounter ability, which would still allow them to combo well with every class, and yet remain an exciting option when compared to another race for the same class.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
The more at-wills that are released, the more valuable the human's at-will becomes. A human fighter was a mostly wasted 3rd at-will until Martial Power, but (for example) Cleave, Footwork Lure, and Tide of Iron (or Crushing Surge or Brash Attack) in one package is extremely nice.

I think this is a mistake. They can release all of the new at-wills they want and humans will still not become noticeably more attractive unless they collapse the design buckets and start putting good utility at-wills in the at-will attack power slot. If you had to pick between, for instance, Pass Forward and Crushing Surge, unless you were a human, things might be different, but as long as all of the at-will attack powers take the same type of action, no number of good at-will attack powers will make humans a more attractive option.

Here's why I don't think that the extra at-will will ever be as attractive as a racial power for most classes (wizards are partially an exception because they are the only class with at-wills that will result in friendly fire incidents if used in common situations; but I still think that the fact that there is not yet a +Int/+Wis race in the Monster Manual or Dragon magazine is probably the primary reason that humans are an attractive racial choice for wizards). The essential problem is that, while at-wills are situational, they generally cover a lot of situations and, especially at higher levels, at-will powers see only limited use. Consequently, if you already have the two at-will powers that are the most advantageous for your class and build, the time when the third best at-will will be a better choice than any encounter or daily power that you have as well as a better choice than either of your two most advantageous at-will powers is almost vanishingly small. It certainly won't come up once every encounter. It probably won't come up once every twelve encounters. (My own experience playing an LFR human warlord--a build which, next to wizard, has the largest number of good at-will powers and, in my particular setup (Wolf Pack Tactics, Brash Assault, Commander's Strike), a primary at-will power that is of variable usefulness based on the DM and situation (Brash Assault)) is most likely to come across situations where the third at-will should theoretically be useful--is this: I have played through seven modules (3-4 combat encounters per mod) with the character and I have only used Commander's Strike once (with a second situation where I would have used Commander's Strike if the DM hadn't bit on every Brash Assault opportunity I had tossed him to that point). If the third at-will power is essentially negligible for that warlord, it is going to be negligible for most human characters). On the other hand, racial encounter powers like dragon breath, halfling luck, and elven accuracy DO come up every encounter. Powers like Infernal rebuke, dwarven durability, and fey step may not come up quite every encounter, but they often come up every other encounter. And to add insult to injury, even when it does come up, the extra at-will power, is almost never going to provide as much of an advantage vis a vis your first or second at-will power as one of the other racial abilities would. So the racial encounter powers are better and come up six to twelve times as often. And that's for a class with multiple good at-will powers. If we're talking Priest's Shield, here... not so much.

Feats are the area where humans have the potential to shine, but they still only have one top-shelf racial feat: Action Surge.

Timely Revival is one of the worst excuses for a feat they have printed. (Really, it is only useful when my character has been beaten into unconsciousness and then it gives me a mere 5% chance not to lose my action; yeah, that's the picture of a top shelf feat).

Avenging Spirit looks like it has potential but has several issues. First, how often do your allies really go down? I'm guessing it's more like once every ten encounters than once every encounter. Action points are great and all, but in terms of extra actions per combat, it's not that impressive. The bigger problem, however is this: the feat does not grant an exception to the one action point per combat limit. Therefore, the real question is not, "how often do your allies go down?" but rather, "how often do your allies go down in a combat where you have not already spent an action point?" In my experience, the kind of tough encounters that knock allies down will also tend to be the kind of encounters that draw out your action points early. Therefore, the situations that are most likely to trigger the feat are the very situations where it likely to be useless.
 

Victim

First Post
Human Perserverance is also really good, I think.

Avenging Spirit seems much better for warlords, since they can vastly increase their chances of getting an AP by withholding healing. :)

Selection from a good range of at wills is still valuable even if they're all standard actions. Different powers gain extra value in different situations. Speaking of fighters, Cleave provides extra utility over a basic attack when there are multiple enemies in reach. Tide of Iron works best when you need to reposition enemies, especially to take advantage of important terrain or zone/wall effects. Reaping Strike or Brash Strike provide extra single target damage. In any given situation, having 3 at wills provides no extra benefit over just having the one you want at that time - but you can't change your powers that quickly. So having all 3 allows a character maintain extra value across more situations, thus resulting in a higher total value over a longer period. Naturally, you can waste that benefit if the extra at wills don't complement each other very well.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Here's why I don't think that the extra at-will will ever be as attractive as a racial power for most classes (wizards are partially an exception because they are the only class with at-wills that will result in friendly fire incidents if used in common situations; but I still think that the fact that there is not yet a +Int/+Wis race in the Monster Manual or Dragon magazine is probably the primary reason that humans are an attractive racial choice for wizards).

I would take an extra at-will as a wizard over a +2 wisdom any time. And I think most people who have played human wizards would agree. I think you are underestimating the flexibility an extra at-will offers a wizard.

The essential problem is that, while at-wills are situational, they generally cover a lot of situations and, especially at higher levels, at-will powers see only limited use.

I disagree. Unlike 3e, 4e has the same number of powers at all level, and lower level powers increase in strength over time. Your at-wills will see plenty of use at higher levels.


Feats are the area where humans have the potential to shine, but they still only have one top-shelf racial feat: Action Surge.

Both heroic tear human feats are rock solid. Not much out there helps with saves, and saves become more important as your levels increase.
 

Cadfan

First Post
I think this is a mistake. They can release all of the new at-wills they want and humans will still not become noticeably more attractive unless they collapse the design buckets and start putting good utility at-wills in the at-will attack power slot. If you had to pick between, for instance, Pass Forward and Crushing Surge, unless you were a human, things might be different, but as long as all of the at-will attack powers take the same type of action, no number of good at-will attack powers will make humans a more attractive option.
Nonsense. Different at will powers are more or less useful depending on the circumstances. Having more of them means you can pick up a wider spread.

Your argument is like claiming that once you have a hammer you don't need a screw driver, because you can't use them both at the same time.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
I can use a hammer and a screwdriver at the same time, if the screwdriver is magnetized.

Two-Tool use doesn't require a feat no more.
 

Ahglock

First Post
Nonsense. Different at will powers are more or less useful depending on the circumstances. Having more of them means you can pick up a wider spread.

Your argument is like claiming that once you have a hammer you don't need a screw driver, because you can't use them both at the same time.

Actually if you have a hammer you probably don't need a screw driver much. They both basically do the same thing, push a long pointy piece of metal through two objects binding them together. Sure you might get a benefit out of both, the screwdriver takes longer to bind the pieces together but keeps a stronger grip, the hammer is fast, but the pieces are not bound together as well.

So if you fighting fast moving pieces of wood, the hammer is clearly the better choice. When fighting slow but tough opponents the screwdriver wins the day.

Overall though in most battles between two pieces of wood either one works just as well as the other.
 

Remove ads

Top