Are LA races ever worth it?

[Stormborn]

More specifically, are races that have both LA and monsterous HD worth it? It seems like a Hobgoblin Fighter 2 just doesn't stack up with a Dwarf Fighter 6 (or whatever the coversion is, that of the top of my head). The +1 or +2 LA races w/o HD, like planetouched races, seem mostly reasonable; but other than role play or the coolness factor is their ever a mechanical reason to play a monsterous PC?

 

[Crothian]

Worth it how? Are they worth it by just looking at the numbers? rarely. Are they worth it for creating an interesting a diufferent type of character? usually.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Are they worth it by just looking at the numbers? rarely.

Agreed. It really sets you back, especially when you reach higher levels. There are rules for buying back your LA in Unearthed Arcana, that way you can enjoy the character concept you have, but also have a balanced way of keeping up with the rest of the party.

 

[comrade raoul]

More specifically, are races that have both LA and monsterous HD worth it? It seems like a Hobgoblin Fighter 2 just doesn't stack up with a Dwarf Fighter 6 (or whatever the coversion is, that of the top of my head). The +1 or +2 LA races w/o HD, like planetouched races, seem mostly reasonable; but other than role play or the coolness factor is their ever a mechanical reason to play a monsterous PC?

Almost never for spellcasters, but occasionally for others. Lizardfolk are a pretty strong defensive race and centaurs have terrific stats. The more powerful lycanthropes can also be excellent bargains, arguably to the point of brokenness.

In general, though, I agree with the earlier posters.

 

[Nightfall]

I agree with what others have said:

LA races (unless they have REALLY good spellcasting progressions) are not good for most spellcasting types.

Regular melee types and/or rogues, fairly decent. But overall number wise, they probably don't pack the same wallop that a regular NPC of the same build might be. (IE a PC Half Troll half Giant Psion 6 isn't necessarily as good as Half Troll half Hill giant Psion 6.)

 

[Halivar]

Something I look for, especially with racial class progressions, is to see whether stat bonuses make up for lost hit dice, BAB, skill points, etc. I keep in mind that if I get a +2 Str bonus (or +2 Dex for ranged attacks) for each LA increment, then I effectively recover a fighter's BAB for those missed hit dice. Con increases, if they get up to +4 or so, can also effectively make up for hit points.

Here's how I analyze, say, the weretiger racial class progression from Dragon #313 (as a "for instance"):
It's ECL 9, with only 6 HD. The final BAB at level 9 is +4. The total Str bonus, however, is +12, and the Dex bonus is +4. Therefore, the total modified melee attack bonus is +10; out of 9 levels, that ain't half-bad. Our total modified ranged attack bonus is +6; again, out of 9 levels, this is respectably along the lines of a rogue, cleric, or monk.

Now, we are also missing 3 HD from our class progression. We have a +4 racial Con bonus, which means that by level 9 we have an extra 12 hitpoints. We calculate what we lost to LA using the weretiger's hit-die type: d8. Three hit-dice of d8 yield 4.5*3=13.5. This means we lost 1.5 hitpoints due to LA. I consider this acceptable (especially considering we gained a modified melee attack bonus modifer).

Now we look at armor, since our weretiger won't be wearing any (like a good many monsters in the MM). Keep in mind that we already have +2 Dex modifier accounted for. We throw on top of that a +4 natural armor bonus for a total of +6 (unless we're in animal form, in which case our size modifer takes our AC downa notch). This, frankly, is not very good; not at level 9, anyway. If we have a nice DM, however, he will let us craft bracers of armor that we can wear in hybrid form. This can be done for most other creatures, as well. This brings us back up to +10, which is acceptable for a 9th-level character. Not stellar, but adequate.

Slap on all out other goodies, however, and the weretiger is, mechanically, a very nice race to take for fighting.

The only weak spot is skills. Only 6 hit-dice, with only 2 + Int mod skill points each. This is offset somewhat by racial bonuses to balance, hide, and move silently, but the character is still skill-hobbled, IMHO. Still, the race is quite compelling from a combat mechanics standpoint.

This same analysis shows that a good many (but not all) PC-playable creatures in the MM are viable when stacked up against a PC of the same level with normal classes.

 

[Felix]

I think a lot of it depends upon the method you use to roll stats. If you are in a 5d6 drop the 2 lowest, then high stats will abound, and pluses to stats arn't worth as much as a HD.

On the other hand, if you're in a 22-point buy game, then the bonuses you get to your stats become that much more important, and the LA races become more powerful, because they are the only ones likely to have any stats above 14.

So the Hobgoblin Fighter 2 (ECL 5, 2 racial HD, +1 LA, +2 Fighter HD) is going to pound on that Dwarven Fighter 5 if the Dwarf has stats like (13, 10, 14, 10, 9, 8) and the Hobgoblin has his more powerful stats because of the ability bonuses.

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Another thing that makes a difference is the presence of tech. Say you're running a low-tech, low-magic game. The lizardman's +5 natural armor suddenly becomes much more powerful than in a game where every Tom, Dick and Harry are running around with +3 Full Plate.

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So really it depends on the campaign conditions to decide if a LA race is worth the LA. And by worth, I mean will it mechanically make up for the loss of a HD.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So the Hobgoblin Fighter 2 (ECL 5, 2 racial HD, +1 LA, +2 Fighter HD) is going to pound on that Dwarven Fighter 5 if the Dwarf has stats like (13, 10, 14, 10, 9, 8) and the Hobgoblin has his more powerful stats because of the ability bonuses.

Just a note. Hobgoblins are ecl+1 with no racial hit dice.

Now - a point to notice. The key thing about monstrous hit dice is what type of hit dice they are.

If they're humanoid - they suck (mid bab, one good save, low skills, mid hit die, no special abilities). If they're monstrous humanoid, they're better (2 good saves, full bab, darkvision).

Outside hit dice? All good saves, 8 skill points a level, darkvision, full bab, d8 hit dice.

Dragon is just nuts. d12, full bab, full saves, 6 skill points, darkvision, low light vision, immunity to sleep and paralysis etc etc.

 

[Felix]

Heh, sorry, was thinking Bugbear, who is also +1 LA, but with jucier goodies and 2 racial HD.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm not necessarily arguing against you, Halivar, but just a few things you should also take into account when making your own decisions on balance:

The final BAB at level 9 is +4. The total Str bonus, however, is +12, and the Dex bonus is +4. Therefore, the total modified melee attack bonus is +10; out of 9 levels, that ain't half-bad. Our total modified ranged attack bonus is +6; again, out of 9 levels, this is respectably along the lines of a rogue, cleric, or monk.

Note that your weretiger will be five levels behind a human fighter in terms of BAB, and therefore five levels behind the human in terms of iterative attacks gained by BAB. Essentially he'll always have 1 less attack than the human.

We have a +4 racial Con bonus, which means that by level 9 we have an extra 12 hitpoints. We calculate what we lost to LA using the weretiger's hit-die type: d8. Three hit-dice of d8 yield 4.5*3=13.5. This means we lost 1.5 hitpoints due to LA. I consider this acceptable (especially considering we gained a modified melee attack bonus modifer).

You need to add in your con bonus (minus the bonus gained from weretiger) to the hit die, when calculating lost hp. i.e. if the character has a 16 con (before applying the template's ability bonuses), then that's an additional 9 hit points the character loses, since he will have 3 less hit dice on which to apply his con bonus.