Are LA races ever worth it?

[Halivar]

Note that your weretiger will be five levels behind a human fighter in terms of BAB, and therefore five levels behind the human in terms of iterative attacks gained by BAB. Essentially he'll always have 1 less attack than the human.

Nope. He'll have three attacks: two claw attacks at full BAB, and a bite at -5 (unless you get multiattack, in which case it raises to -2). The werewolf lord's hybrid stat-block on page 176 of the MM seems to suggest you don't get the iterative attacks on natural wepons, but do get them for manufactured weapons. Nevertheless, three attacks (two at full BAB) is very nice.

You need to add in your con bonus (minus the bonus gained from weretiger) to the hit die, when calculating lost hp. i.e. if the character has a 16 con (before applying the template's ability bonuses), then that's an additional 9 hit points the character loses, since he will have 3 less hit dice on which to apply his con bonus.

Excellent point, LP. You are quite correct. You will always be out LA * Con mod hitpoints for any given PC-playable creature. The trick for such characters, then, is to dish out more damage than you receive. The weretiger, I think, is a great example of how you can do that easily (especially when you factor in the DR 10).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Nope. He'll have three attacks: two claw attacks at full BAB, and a bite at -5 (unless you get multiattack, in which case it raises to -2). The werewolf lord's hybrid stat-block on page 176 of the MM seems to suggest you don't get the iterative attacks on natural wepons, but do get them for manufactured weapons. Nevertheless, three attacks (two at full BAB) is very nice.

Okay, so at <11th-level, the lycanthrope will have more attacks (3 vs. the human's 2.) As your lycanthrope is ECL 9, that's not likely to be for very long. At ECL 11-15, they have the same number of attacks, and at ECL 16+ the human will have one more attack than the lycanthrope. This is all assuming that the lycanthrope uses his natural weapons, and the human manufactured ones, which also adds additional complexity, since the human is likely to have an enchanted weapon, which is less expensive than the Amulet of Mighty Fists that the lycanthrope will need to enchant his own attacks. If the lycanthrope uses manufactured weapons, he'll always be at 1 attack less than the human.

In theory, the lycanthrope will be doing more damage with his greater strength, even though he'll have less attacks. Though in practice, with 2-for-1 power attack and 1.5 strength on two-handed weapons, it's not so significant a gulf as one might believe.

Excellent point, LP. You are quite correct. You will always be out LA * Con mod hitpoints for any given PC-playable creature. The trick for such characters, then, is to dish out more damage than you receive. The weretiger, I think, is a great example of how you can do that easily (especially when you factor in the DR 10).

DR is an excellent advantage to help mitigate the fewer hp. Especially in 3.5 where a magic weapon doesn't negate the need for silver. However, I think you're overestimating the damage a weretiger can do.

If he uses his natural weapons, he only does 1xstr damage with his primary attack, and .5 strength with his secondaries. And only gets 1-for-1 power attack. These factors seriously dampen the impact of his massive strength bonus, in comparison to the greatsword-wielding human fighter.

Now the lycanthrope can also pick up a greatsword and get the Power Attack and strength goodness...but then he's back to being one full attack behind the human fighter because of his BAB. Whether his strength is high enough to compensate for the loss of an extra attack is questionable.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Okay, so at <11th-level, the lycanthrope will have more attacks (3 vs. the human's 2.) As your lycanthrope is ECL 9, that's not likely to be for very long. At ECL 11-15, they have the same number of attacks, and at ECL 16+ the human will have one more attack than the lycanthrope. This is all assuming that the lycanthrope uses his natural weapons, and the human manufactured ones, which also adds additional complexity, since the human is likely to have an enchanted weapon, which is less expensive than the Amulet of Mighty Fists that the lycanthrope will need to enchant his own attacks. If the lycanthrope uses manufactured weapons, he'll always be at 1 attack less than the human.

If the lycanthrope, in hybrid form, uses a two haded weapon, he'll get one less attack than the human, but then he'll get a bite attack as a secondary attack (-5 from full primary). When he gets to 3 attacks, that bite attack is still secondary.

In theory, the lycanthrope will be doing more damage with his greater strength, even though he'll have less attacks. Though in practice, with 2-for-1 power attack and 1.5 strength on two-handed weapons, it's not so significant a gulf as one might believe.DR is an excellent advantage to help mitigate the fewer hp. Especially in 3.5 where a magic weapon doesn't negate the need for silver. However, I think you're overestimating the damage a weretiger can do.

Now the lycanthrope can also pick up a greatsword and get the Power Attack and strength goodness...but then he's back to being one full attack behind the human fighter because of his BAB. Whether his strength is high enough to compensate for the loss of an extra attack is questionable.

Except he's getting that extra bite attack. When the human is up to 3 attacks, he's at 3 too, except TWO of his are at -5 to his maximum. The human has one riding at -10.

 

[Insight]

Sometimes, there is a lot more to the 'Monster Race' than just its raw mechanics. There are two notable points of interest here.

1. Is it playable (ie, will your DM allow it, despite LAs, etc)?

2. Is it fun to play (ie, will your fellow players hate you for playing a wierdo)?

Those are as salient as the points regarding relative power of the various monsters, etc.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If the lycanthrope, in hybrid form, uses a two haded weapon, he'll get one less attack than the human, but then he'll get a bite attack as a secondary attack (-5 from full primary). When he gets to 3 attacks, that bite attack is still secondary.

And the Bite attack doesn't cause the lycanthrope to incur TWF penalties?

 

[Gort]

While the human might have a lot more attacks, they'll be at 0/-5/-10/-15, making the last ones a bit rubbish really, unless you fight creatures with nothing for an AC all the time.

On the other hand, the multi-attacking weretiger will have 3 attacks at -2/-2/-2, which is both a lot easier to roll and more likely to hit. Makes power attacking easier to calculate too

 

[Will]

As per the faq, a monster can make natural attacks added to weapon attacks, so long as the respective limb is free. So a weretiger could make a regular iteration of attacks with a one-handed weapon, then a claw attack at full BAB, then a bite attack at BAB -5. Or use a two-handed weapon, and get the bite at -5.

Multi-attack is +0/+0/-2, I believe, instead of the normal +0/+0/-5.

 

[BigRedRod]

The 3.0 approach to level adjustment was far superior to the feeble attempts set out by SS
Quite simply +1 HD doesn't equal +1level

The monsterous progressions really screw things up too

With a good DM, you can play non-standard races without sacrificing power

 

[JoeGKushner]

Generally anything with a LA of +3 is usually too high for most creatures to survive, unless they have racial hit dice, bringing their ECL up even higher, making them in many ways, even more useless.

 

[Stormborn]

Thanks for the responces. Just to be clear, I typically DM and wasn't thinking about playing one, but rather selling the idea of monsterous races to some of my players, although "selling" is probablly too strong a word, more like encouraging alternatives to the things we usually play. Along those lines I have calculated the campaign level (based on XP) where a mosterous race could be added with 1 level of PC class for the monsters in the MM 3.5 that have the "X as Characters" info. Does this seem correct?

Monster - Effective Character Level - (PC class + Level Adjustment+Racial Hit Die)

Bugbear 5th (1+1 LA+3 RHD)
Centaur 7th (1+2 LA +4 RHD)
Doppleganger 9th (1+4 LA +4 RHD)
Dwarf 1st (1+0 LA + 0 RDH)
Elf 1st (1+0 LA +0 RHD)
Elf, Drow 3rd (1 +2 LA + 0 RHD)
Gargoyle 10th (1+5 LA + 4 RHD)
Genni, Jann 12th (1+5 LA + 6 RHD)
Githyanki 3rd (1+2 LA + 0 RHD)
Githzerai 3rd (1 +2 LA +0 RHD)
Gnoll 4th (1+ 1 LA +2 RHD)
Goblin 1st (1+ 0 LA +0 RHD)
Grimlock 5th (1+ 2 LA +2 RHD)
Half-elf 1st (1+ 0 LA+ 0 RHD)
Half-orc 1st (1+0 LA +0 RHD)
Halfling 1st (1+0 LA+ 0 RHD)
Hobgoblin 2nd (1+ 1 LA +0 RHD)
Kobold 1st (1 +0 LA + 0 RHD)
Lizardfolk 4th (1+1 LA +2 RHD)
Lychanthropes, natural (a sample)
Werebear 7th (1+3 LA + 3 RHD) based on black bear
Wereboar 7th(1+ 3 LA + 3 RHD)
Wererat 4th (1+ 3 LA + 0 RHD)
Weretiger 10th (1+ 3 LA+ 6RHD)
Lycanthropes, afflicted: as above –1
Mindflayer 16th (1+7 LA +8 RHD)
Minotaur 9th (1+ 2 LA + 6 RHD)
Ogre 7th (1+ 2 LA +4 RHD)
Ogre mage 13th (1+7 LA +5 RHD)
Orc 1st (1 +0 LA +0 RHD)
Planetouched
Aasimar 2nd (1+1 LA + 0 RHD)
Tiefling 2nd (1 +1 LA +0 RHD)
Rakshasas 15th (1+7 LA+7)
Satyr 8th (1+ 2 LA+ 5 RHD)
Sprite, Pixies 5th (1+4 LA +0 RHD)
Troglodyte 5th (1+2 LA+ 2 RHD)
Troll 12th (1+5 LA+6 RHD)
Yuanti,Pureblood 7th (1+2 LA +4 RHD)

Templates:
Templates may be added to characters as well, to find the ECL take the above number and add the indicated adjustment.

Celestial: +2*
Fiendish: +2*
Ghost: +5
Half-Celestial: +4
Half-Dragon: +3
Half-Fiendish: +4
Lich: +4 **
Vampire +8
* Believe it or not the Half-versions of these actually get better bonuses.
** Not that anyone becomes a lich at a low level. An 11th level magic user is required to make a phylactery and a character must make his own. Thus the minimum level one might be a lich is 15th.