Are LA races ever worth it?

[Saeviomagy]

I don't know where in the world you got this. Every monster I see in the MM uses its full strength bonus for its primary attack(s), and gets half-strength and -5 only to its secondary attack. That's why the primary attack, listed in the MM stat-blocks as "Attack", has the same exact attack bonus under "Full Attack", because only the secondary attack listed under "Full Attack" receives the -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack).

He is correct in saying it's +0/+0/-2 with Multiattack.

The reason would be because he's combining manufactured weapons with natural weapons.

The first number is an armed attack with a one-handed sword. It is at full attack bonus, and gets iterative attacks if the base attack bonus is more than 5.

ALL natural attacks are then secondary attacks, because the weapon attack was the primary attack.

Examples can be found in the description and example for the half dragon, half fiend, the lamia (who's primary claw attack in single attack mode turns into a secondary claw in combination with a dagger), the medusa etc etc.

Once you use full attack progression with a weapon, all your natural attacks are secondary attacks.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't know where in the world you got this. Every monster I see in the MM uses its full strength bonus for its primary attack(s), and gets half-strength and -5 only to its secondary attack. That's why the primary attack, listed in the MM stat-blocks as "Attack", has the same exact attack bonus under "Full Attack", because only the secondary attack listed under "Full Attack" receives the -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack).

He is correct in saying it's +0/+0/-2 with Multiattack.

I believe he's asserting that when the weretiger uses a manufactured weapon, the manufactured weapon then becomes the weretiger's primary attack, and therefore all other attacks not with the manufactured weapon are treated as secondary. It makes perfect sense to me, since a creature can have multiple secondary weapons but only one primary weapon.

So the weretiger would get a +0/-5 with his greatsword, then an additional bite attack at -5, since it's a secondary weapon.

I'm still looking for some clarification on TWF penalties. My gut is to assign TWF penalties for a critter mixing manufactured and natural attacks, though I could be straying into potential House Rules.

* Believe it or not the Half-versions of these actually get better bonuses.

You've been confused by the terms. A Half-Celestial isn't half a Celestial creature. The relationship becomes clearer if we substitute the word "celestial" with "angel."

Angel: Solar, Planetar, Astral Deva...
Half-Angel: The child of a Solar, Planetar, Astral Deva...and some mortal creature.
Angelic Creature: A beast that lives in Heaven, and thus has a bit of an angelic nature.

The same holds true for the fiendish side, and is clear even using the standard terms.

Fiend: Balor, Pit Fiend, Succubus, Cornugon...
Half-Fiend: The child of a Pit Fiend, Balor, etc. and a mortal.
Fiendish Creature: A beast that lives in the Abyss/Hells, and thus has a bit of a fiendish nature.

Celestial creatures and fiendish creatures are weaker than Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends, because they're only magical beasts that live with the respective Outsiders, not half-Outsider themselves.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

It depends. Some LA races are not worth the trouble, but some of them are quite decent. If you want them to be mechanically comparable to +0 LA races you have to build them more carefully, though. Spellcasters are usually out.

Yep. The anthropomorphic animals are really rather rude, and possibly a bit too good.

It also depends on the level you start at. High LA races are easier at higher levels, since you don't have to suffer through levels without much HD. However, I think that races with more LA than HD are, in general, a bad idea.

Brad

 

[scourger]

Worth it how? Are they worth it by just looking at the numbers? rarely. Are they worth it for creating an interesting a diufferent type of character? usually.

Agreed. Succint, too. Moving on.

 

[Halivar]

...

I see. I did not notice that the first guy was talking about combining weapon attacks with natural attacks. In which case you are exactly correct.

Just to be sure though; if you forgo using a manufactured weapon, you can still apply your classes BAB to your natural attacks and still take the standard +0/+0/-5 progression.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So the weretiger would get a +0/-5 with his greatsword, then an additional bite attack at -5, since it's a secondary weapon.

Yup

I'm still looking for some clarification on TWF penalties. My gut is to assign TWF penalties for a critter mixing manufactured and natural attacks, though I could be straying into potential House Rules.

You are. Standard rules, supported by multiple examples, are that TWF penalties do not apply.

I see. I did not notice that the first guy was talking about combining weapon attacks with natural attacks. In which case you are exactly correct.

Just to be sure though; if you forgo using a manufactured weapon, you can still apply your classes BAB to your natural attacks and still take the standard +0/+0/-5 progression.

You work out your melee bonus to hit, and then apply the full bonus to all your primary natural attacks, then apply the full bonus -5 to all your secondary natural attacks.

Note that you do not get iterative attacks with natural weapons.