Are military armies valid in 4e?

But there was a reason why these formations where used. They provided a tactical advantage to deal with other armies. If you add spellcasters raining hell from air, these might no longer work. But what works? Certainly not the military armies of the medieval time. You will have to buid your tank and flak equivalents very soon. If there is no magic or technology to do that, what would happen?

You'd have the fantasy equivalent of The Battle of Nagashino? The side without magic is at a huge disadvantage, and would likely get utterly pulverized. After a little while, the magic items and casters are sought out by every army because without them, they just don't stand a chance. Tactics to deal with the new technology would be required for any troops who can't use spells or magic items themselves to remain relevant. Sorry to go all "magic as technology," but it seems like the logical outcome to me...

The development of the tank didn't spell the end of infantry. Their roles and tactics just adapted.
 

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But there was a reason why these formations where used. They provided a tactical advantage to deal with other armies. If you add spellcasters raining hell from air, these might no longer work. But what works? Certainly not the military armies of the medieval time. You will have to buid your tank and flak equivalents very soon. If there is no magic or technology to do that, what would happen?

I think I'd hire out wizards to work on producing a "Ring of Anti-Magic Field", to minimize the devastation of a fireball(though, I'm not familiar with the range, and don't play 4E... so that probably wouldn't work).

Either that, or recruit races with high spell-resistance or make use of golems with spell immunity to attack the casters.
 

A battle in 4e is probably best treated as a mix of combat and roleplaying and/or skill challlenges. Normal combat for those times when the PCs are in the thick of the fight, face-to-face with enemies. Roleplaying or skill challenges for things like strategic insights, tactical advantage, rallying your own side's forces and demoralising the enemy.

As Korgoth says, you wouldn't want it to be one long combat lasting dozens of rounds, that doesn't work. Instead there should be multiple combats of typical length with short rests in between. I understand that this is actually quite realistic for fighting in plate armour. The wearer would get overheated after a few minutes and have to retire.

That's pretty similar to what is suggested in Heroes of Battle, iirc. Depending on how the PC group does in a series of encounters, the battle may be won or lost, or more casualties will be suffered, or some advantage goes to their side if they succeed. It doesn't really cover PCs as commanders, but that's a rather different problem.

As for how a battle would go, I'd suggest that magic would lead to the use of wide and shallow formations. It's all very well launching a fireball at a formation but if that formation is only two or three ranks deep, you really aren't having much effect on a large army. That's normal for medieval armies to form up in shallow formations, and cavalry would often be in single ranks, en haye being the technical term. Personally I'd expect more 'Turkish' style wave tactics rather than a charge, at least in the initial phase of a battle.

The other thing that I feel sure would develop is skirmishing. Even more so than shallow formations, low troop density makes casting spells less useful because the targets aren't available. Lightly-armoured spellcasters seem like a good choice of target for troops armed with crossbows, bows, or even javelins. And without the resources available to 3e wizards et al they aren't as capable of protecting themselves fully.

One other idea, which partly comes from a novel I don't remember the name of. Military units often have standards, battle songs, rituals, etc. In a world where magic works, these rituals might actually be magical. Before a battle units get together, a unit 'priest' who has never cast a spell in his life but who knows the ritual (Ritual Magic feat) directs them in chanting their battle prayers, pours sacred oils on the standard, promises part of the booty to the unit shrine where the standard rests, swears in the group of elite soldiers who will protect the standard or die trying, and by doing this establishes some sort of protection for the unit. Whether it's a morale bonus to attacks, some sort of magical protection against fire, enhanced mobility, or something else might vary from unit to unit or even according to the particular ritual performed, but it should give something back. Maybe standards that have been used many times before for this give greater effects and famous old units are better protected magically, but that would be something for particular GMs to decide. But in 4e it seems like a very practical use for Ritual Magic.
 

I come from a wargaming background. I've played in campaigns were mass combat was a major - maybe the major - feature of the campaign. I've played battles with 6000+ tokens on the battlefield representing units, and with 60 plus fighting ships containing 10's of thousands of marines and thousands of seige weapons.

Yes, high level characters especially spell casters have a huge role in these combats and if present in significant amounts can completely dominate them.

One thing we discovered very early on is that fantasy warfare could not look exactly like real world ancient warfare and if it was to look even something like it some significant assumptions had to be made. One such assumption was that magic was an accepted part of warfare and that appropriate magical defenses were available and would be employed as a matter of course by the great powers. So, for example, if you want a game that features wooden sailing ships but also spellcasters with the ability to conjure fire, you have to assume that major military power take magical precautions to defend their sails and perhaps even their hulls from magical attack as part of the normal cost of building a warship. Otherwise, building a wooden ship that depends on cloth for its mobility is a total waste of resources and it just wouldn't happen. It's not like the PC's discovered magic. If its been going on for thousands of years, society has been shaped accordingly.

Another assumption we had to make was that professional armies were trained to deal with enemy wizards and had tactics that were modified accordingly. For example:

1) Heavy infantry knows knows how 'turtle' up and use its shields to obtain 90% or better cover from evocation spells (as well as normal missile fire), and will do so if they expect fireballs or witness one. Similarly, pavais and mantlets will be deployed to provide protable or semi-portable cover.
2) Armies deploy skirmish lines of lighter forces about their heavy forces specifically tasked with seeking out harassing enemy spellcasters (as well as thwarting opposing skirmishers from doing the same).
3) Armies in the field will dig in in much the same way that modern armies dig in when expecting fire from artillery or firearms.
4) Allied spellcasters will be expecting the usual gambits and will attempt to counter them. I've seen a major battle turn on the employment of a wand of quenching.
5) Allied archers will concentrate their fire on any obvious wizard in the area. (Massed missile fire is usually quite effective at overwhelming low to mid level wizards defenses.)
6) Major military powers will have magic items - standards, banners, musical instruments - with powers designed to protect an entire unit from magical attack and in particular the usual gambits.
7) Major military powers will not be content with fielding armies of merely mundane creatures. Armies - even the good guys - can be expected to field fantasy creatures rather than merely horses and stalwart men-at-arms. Thus various combinations of griffin riders, giants, worgs, mastadons, zombies, golems, ogres, etc. will be present and will be deployed preferentially against the strongest threats fielded by the other side - which often means high level characters.
8) Seige weapon rules in D&D are often broken, making firing ballistas, catapolts or mangonels at PC's and other high level characters a very viable option and a consequently a very credible threat.
 

What are you talking about? Maybe at very high levels a band of PCs can singlehandedly wipe out large armies.

IME it's around 11th-12th in 3e, which is the start of 'high' level. In 1e it was around 8th. They don't wipe out large (20,000+) armies in a single battle, but they can easily destroy the more common smaller forces of 2-3,000. For instance a fireball is 40' diameter, it'll take out at least 20 close-order infantry. Range is 400'+40'/level in 3e. A wand holds 50, 50 x 20 = 1000. The army will rout well before that, of course.

Archery doesn't work because the Wizard can fly high over the battlefield; at higher levels (7th+) he'll have Improved Invis, and he'll certainly have Prot fr Arrows.
 

Yes, high level wizards in previous editions could wreak havoc on armies, but they were still limited in how many spells they could cast a day, and the army they are facing would most likely have spellcasters of their own. Armies have always been valid in D&D. They just have magic or dragons, etc instead of high tech weapons and machinery.
 

Frankly while magic would be important in a fantasy battle I find the effectiveness of a wizard vs an army is usually vastly overstated. A 40' diameter fireball will hit, at most, 40 soldiers. Against an army of thousands that's not even noticable. A large army, in the 10s of thousands, takes up miles of space. Wizards have very little they can do on that scale.

Druids are an armies worst nightmare however. Weather control is huge. The ability to fliter through an enemy camp in the night in animal form spreading contagion and poisoning supplies is very nasty. Not to mention a druids ability to mess with an armies baggage train and other animals.
 

Druids are an armies worst nightmare however. Weather control is huge. The ability to fliter through an enemy camp in the night in animal form spreading contagion and poisoning supplies is very nasty. Not to mention a druids ability to mess with an armies baggage train and other animals.

Oh wait. 4e. Never mind. :erm:
 

Yeah, in 4E druids are even more effective since they have readier access to stealthier forms and aren't limited by spells per day. Doing weather control or poisoning supplies is totally within the scope of a skill challenge. If you want it to be. Just like you can get creative with martial character scaling walls or swinging on chandeliers, there's nothing stopping you from getting creative with the other power sources and letting them do things not defined by powers. And if all else fails, the druid (or anyone else) can invent a ritual to accomplish those things.
 

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