Are Minotaurs underpowered, or is high-level combat broken?

[LostSoul]

On a side note, Eye-Bite is way too powerful in my opinion. I believe a party of 4 eye-biting warlocks

4 Eyebiting Paladins would be neat.

 

[Jack99]

I'm not that familiar with how people are making high level character builds (my game's only 2nd level), so could you walk me through how that character works in combat? I thought that even at high levels, characters wouldn't be dealing more than 30 or 40 damage per round.

Sure. (Now I really hope I got it right) Here are the relevant stats:

Brutal Scoundrel Rogue, 13th level (human)
Str 20, Dex 20
To hit: +5 (stat), +6 (level), +3 (prof), +3 (enhancement) = +17. +19 if he has CA
Damage: +5 (stat) +3 (enhancement) +2 (focus)
Weapon: Rapier +3 of Frost

Basic attack +17, 1d8+10

Other relevant feats: Lasting frost + Wintertouched + Backstabber + defensive advantage

Surprise round: Torturous Strike: 2d8+15+3d8+5 = average 42,5
Round 1: Riposte Strike: 1d8+15+3d8+5 = average 38 (that is 80,5 total)
Round 1: Minotaur Strikes and Riposte "kicks in" and deals 1d8+15 damage, = average 19,5 (total now 100).
Okay, so just a few points short. And if he misses, the Shadow Assassin Riposte kicks in as well, doing 10 damage which makes for a dead Minotaur Warrior

The only "issue" there can be with the build, afaik, is the synergy between "Shadow Assassin Riposte" and the cold vulnerability. But logic seems to dictate that riposting is done with the weapon (at least thats how all other similar abilities in the PHB are described) , ergo the vulnerability 5 to cold should apply to the riposte ability as well, although the ability itself does not prolong the vulnerability to cold period, since it is not a power.

I hope that made some sense

Cheers

 

[Runestar]

I am beginning to have serious doubts as to just how extensively paragon and epic tier gameplay was playtested...

 

[Jack99]

I am beginning to have serious doubts as to just how extensively paragon and epic tier gameplay was playtested...

It remains to be seen. The example however is a monster 3 levels lower than the player, so that has definitely something to do with it. But yes, even though he is a rogue, the king of melee damage, he does seem awfully effective at times. We will be playing again in a week's time (it only sorta a casual game put together so that I get to be a player too, once in a while, since I am always the DM for our 8 man group), and I will make sure to get back and post some more thoughts on how the combats go.

 

[Ardulac]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that the rogue build you suggest works the way you think it does. Both wintertouched and lasting frost key off of powers that have the cold keyword, so your rapier of frost won't activate them just by doing cold damage. Perhaps you could interpret the daily on that weapon as being an attack with cold keyword, but the at will cold keyword is for the power to switch back and forth between damage types and is not added to the powers themselves.

 

[burntgerbil]

Ardulac - I believe there was a post by the wizards crew lately that did confirm the cheezy cold tactics for rogues. Perhaps someone nerdier than I can point out where that official statement was.

 

[Victim]

The errata changes keyword inheritance so using the damage switching power of a Frost weapon should apply the Cold keyword to the attack.

That being said, I think it's unbalancing for it to work like that.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that the vulnerability from Lasting Frost applies to the initial attack.

Shadow Riposte isn't weapon dependent, so I don't see why it gets the Cold vulnerability added. If you don't add magic weapon bonuses, then other magical weapon properties probably don't apply either.

 

[keterys]

Also, I'm not entirely sure that the vulnerability from Lasting Frost applies to the initial attack.

It shouldn't - I believe people attempting to use that interpretation try to argue that you resolve attacks like:
1. Make attack roll. If it hits, target is now vulnerable.
2. Apply damage.

Just for clarity, I don't see that Jack did that, though. Tortuous Strike would deal 2d8 + Dex + Str + Enh + WF + 3d8 + Str, so his number looks accurate without the vulnerability included in the later damage.

Shadow Riposte isn't weapon dependent, so I don't see why it gets the Cold vulnerability added. If you don't add magic weapon bonuses, then other magical weapon properties probably don't apply either.

Frost weapons change all damage your weapon deals into cold, so as long as you make the argument that the Shadow Assassin Riposte uses your weapon to deal its Dex damage, it would be cold and gain the vulnerability. The ability is silent on whether it does. It does work even if you have no weapon. Technically, it works even if you're unconscious...

 

[keterys]

Anyhow, examining the math:
A level 10 creature is 5/8 of a level 13 by XP and it should take ~4-5 rounds for a 13 rogue to take out a 13 creature (slightly faster if it can guarantee CA). So 4-5 rounds * 5/8 = ~3 rounds to kill the level 10.

Now, the rogue in question is +17/19 attack vs. the minotaur's AC 26. So a 40%/30% chance of missing. CA is guaranteed until the 2nd round due to First Strike, Vulnerability 5 once it's hit. SA Riposte either way.

Surprise: Tortuous Strike - 42.5 * .65 (normal hit) + 70.5 * .05 (crit)
Round 1: Riposte Strike - (38 * .65 (normal hit) + 62.5 * .05 (crit))*.7(chance of vuln from first attack)+(33*.65 (normal hit) + 57.5 * .05 (crit))*.3(no vuln from first attack)
So 57.925 average damage at this point. If the minotaur attacks the rogue (and... I don't really know why it would, rather than say shifting and charging or attacking another adjacent), it has a high likelihood of dying by the end of the next round between the two ripostes, which is about right. If it doesn't, it'll probably last til the next round.

So that seems fine.

 

[FadedC]

Frost weapons change all damage your weapon deals into cold, so as long as you make the argument that the Shadow Assassin Riposte uses your weapon to deal its Dex damage, it would be cold and gain the vulnerability. The ability is silent on whether it does. It does work even if you have no weapon. Technically, it works even if you're unconscious...

There is no weapon keyword on shadow riposte, so by the RAW you are definitely not using your weapon. It's just an effect where you do some damage when they miss you.

RAI can perhaps be argued differently of course, though in truth I doubt they thought it through so far to claim they have an intent for how this power should work.