Are PCs expected to beat skill challenges?

[CrimsonNeko]

Yeah, but success allows them to entirely skip the main boss of the module. While the chance of success is low, it's cool that there are rules for the option at all that don't completely trivialize it.

 

[jaer]

Yeah, but success allows them to entirely skip the main boss of the module. While the chance of success is low, it's cool that there are rules for the option at all that don't completely trivialize it.

Does it? It sounded like this would be something going on DURING the last fight, not before it. Unless in my quick read of the end battle left me missing who the end boss actually was.

I thought this skill challange was designed to ruin the ritual and thus save the day even if combat was lost: if the skill challenge succeeded, but the Big K got away, the PCs still won because his plans were completely thwarted.

This skill challenge seems to cover the event that, as the warlord and fighter engage the bad guys, the wizard has the clever idea of "while they are in a fight and away from the book, I'll go close the portal!" So the wizard and cleric are doing this during combat, but all the actions are free actions and minor actions, so it's not preventing them from being meaningful in combat.

I would think that once the rift is described, there would be no need to mention that there is a skill challenge available unless the players declare they want to close it, at which point the arcane or religion skill could be used. The endurance check would be indicated once the portal attacked the players, and I would reveal the heal check after the first successful arcane or religion check ("you think you can help close the rift by defusing the necrotic energies with life energy").

The reward for success is that the PCs have a better ending in that they did more. It sounds likes this is a Win+ (perhaps award more XP for that as a bonus quest reward? Or more treasure or something?) as opposed to just winning the battle and getting a Win. If the skill challenge is lost, the players suffer a little backlash from it, but it does not impair their ability to score a full Win. Failing this challenge but winning the fight should leave them in the same place as simply winning the fight.

 

[keterys]

I also took it as a 'during the fight' thing... which sounds great to me, I really want to do this. But I don't want it to be

'Do this crazy difficult skill challenge and you get... the same result as if you just won the fight! Well, and you take a lot of damage, making it less likely you win the fight!'

I mean. Umm.

 

[kobold]

First a disclaimer- I have not actually read the rules for conflict resolution in 4e.
That being said I anxiously await the 4e rules and from the posts in this thread I feel I’m going to like the conflict rules a lot. Skill check defeats do not mean player loss- it should be used as a way to introduce further excitement and tension. It’s a hard concept to get a hold of, and I don’t always do it well- 20 years of D&D taught me the dice don’t lie, if ya fail ya fail and derail the plot.
This article although not for D&D changed the way I handle player failure.
http://glorantha.com/support/na_defeat.html

 

[Terwox]

Thing is, it's probably a lot easier to complete the skill challenge once the encounter is finished, instead of during.

However, your players don't need to know that -- and it doesn't need to be true, either, for that matter.

The DCs and the damage for failing seem very harsh though... that's already a tough fight!!

Suggestion below:

Spoiler

Perhaps remove the additional monsters in the room w/ Kalarel, lower the DC to something appropriate for the level (-5 DC perhaps, so 17 DC -- still a good chance of failure, and PCs will get injured while trying to close the rift.) Something akin to this may retain the same level of difficulty. You could have the skill challenge be mandatory by having Kalarel say something like, "If you strike me down the rift will open and you will all die." Failure meaning you'd have to push the beast back into the portal while destroying the book, or giving it his body, or, well, something.

As it stands, the skill challenge is just "hard mode" with no real benefit to success. Heck, it even says if you die that the ritual finishes anyway.

Alternatively:

Spoiler

Per the adventure, if Kalarel dies next to the portal, he is sucked through. If the adventurers close the portal, it would make sense to run the challenge as is if it kills him (though perhaps w/ lower DCs.) Regardless, if you close the portal, have the portal lash out and suck him into it. Or, have him take 46 or 93 damage (one healing surge worth.)

It's a cool idea but I think it could be better, per the above -- in a way your players would enjoy.

 

[jaer]

I also took it as a 'during the fight' thing... which sounds great to me, I really want to do this. But I don't want it to be

'Do this crazy difficult skill challenge and you get... the same result as if you just won the fight! Well, and you take a lot of damage, making it less likely you win the fight!'

I mean. Umm.

I agree. The "on failure" thing is kinda of suck, making the rest of the fight more difficult. Closing the portal is a cool idea, and it is difficult. Success, as written, only makes the ending more final and failure, as written, only hurts the players. There is no reason to try if, thematically, the end effects are the same, only the players don't know that until afterwards and suddenly nothing extra cool happens.

As it stands with the skill challenge, there are three victories:
1. Win the challenge, win the fight: Portal is closed. The cake is delicious.
2. Lose/not even try the challenge, win the fight: Portal is half open. Either close it after, or it becomes Some Else's Problem (SEP).
3. Win the challenge, lose the fight: either the PCs died knowing the portal is closed, or they were driven off and escaped, leaving K alive but his plans thwarted.

I would like to reward (1) more because the players did something cool, they made risks for it, and they won. I'd give them bonus Quest XP and some extra money from the town for ridding them of this problem.

Players who attempt the skill challenge and fail are worse off for it than those who never try. I would like to reward the attempt even if it does fail rather than simply punish them for trying something cool (even if it is difficult) and failing. Perhaps for every success or two out of the eight required for victory, K is weakened for 1 round as the portal drains his life to maintain itself or if the players sacrifice their healing surges to close the portal, enemies take it much as radiant damage. This would reward the player who thought "I'm going to close the portal" and reward the successful Arcane or Religion check (since I wouldn't let players sacrifice their health to the portal until such time that a check established that they could do so).

Since the challenge makes it so every failure hurts the party, this balances that with success on the way to victory helps the players, even if they don't win the skill challenge in the end.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, but success allows them to entirely skip the main boss of the module. While the chance of success is low, it's cool that there are rules for the option at all that don't completely trivialize it.

Thing is, this isn't just a hard challenge, its a ludicrously hard challenge.

Sure I have a 6% chance of total victory. But I also have a 94% chance of not only failing the challenge, but also of greatly hindering my fight with the boss monster because of all the damage I've taken. That's just not worth it.

 

[Stalker0]

[SBLOCK]The primary skills for the challenge are Arcana (DC 22) and Religion (DC 22) and the PCs have to accumulate 8 successes before they get 4 failures. The character with the best chance of succeeding on the skill checks will only have a modifier of +10 to each by level 3, unless there are other ways to boost skill checks in the adventure. This means that the character only has a 45% chance of success for each skill check, and is thus most likely to score fewer successes than failures. Running the numbers, the chance of him actually succeeding is 6.1%, while the chance of failure is 93.9%.[/SBLOCK]Of course, this assumes that 1 successful skill check = 1 success, and a failed skill check = 1 failure. I suppose it is possible that you only get 1 failure if you fail the skill check by 5 or more, or you normally get 2 successes for a successful skill check, but if you are willing to score only 1 success, you can lower the DC by 5.

Fire, I want to brush up on my probability, and I'm trying to figure out how you did the math. I can calculate up to 11 rolls, which is a 4.6% chance of victory. Past that point you have to take into account not just the probability of what can occur, but the timing of when failures and successes occur.

 

[drothgery]

I'm pretty sure Aid Another still exists in 4e, which could make some of the skill DCs much more manageable (also, a non-pregen PC might have the Skill Focus feat or something like that).

 

[SnakeNuts]

As it stands with the skill challenge, there are three victories:
1. Win the challenge, win the fight: Portal is closed. The cake is delicious.
2. Lose/not even try the challenge, win the fight: Portal is half open. Either close it after, or it becomes Some Else's Problem (SEP).
3. Win the challenge, lose the fight: either the PCs died knowing the portal is closed, or they were driven off and escaped, leaving K alive but his plans thwarted.

Hmmm... No, I don't see it that way:

On reading the challenge and the encounter, I would say both outcomes are a full win. Slaying Kalarel means he is dead and the ritual has failed. The portal closes. Closing the portal using the challenge means a win as well, so I'd make it so Kalarel gets dragged into the portal as last-second gesture by Orcus. Either way, you give the XP allotted to the challenge the players completed. The combat or the skill challenge.