D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Eric V]

To me 5e makes characters within a subclass barely different

A lot of the classes in 5e have too much attached to the class features, leaving the subclass features a lot less to work with in order to differentiate themselves from each other.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, they’re packaged differently.

When someone claims that 4e Rogue’s Blinding Barrage is the same as the Fighter’s Come And Get It, they’re laughably, ridiculously, factually, incorrect. And yet, the claim gets made.

I'm assuming you're referring to me as that "someone". Your assertion is "laughably, ridiculously, factually, incorrect". I never said they were the same, I said I felt they were both supernatural abilities.

What is the same is that both follow the same cookie-cutter pattern of AEDU pattern with no flexibility. That if you strip away the fluff and the "dagger" as an implement it could have been attached to just about any class as just another way to do an area burst attack that is in no way unique or iconic to the image I have of a rogue.

I have never said the powers were the same. But at this point, I don't expect an honest and fair discussion.

 

[Oofta]

No, no...I have read every message on this thread (because I hate myself, apparently?). There's a serious lack of consistency, which is why it's devolved into "well, that's my opinion."

Yeah, it would be so much better if everyone just followed the anti-4E handbook that the cabal gave us.

But no, people have to go off on tangents and have opinions of their own.

 

[FrogReaver]

Maybe this will help.

4e powers are samey to me is an objective fact.

4e powers are not samey to you is an objective fact.

What makes each of us individually determine whether 4e powers are samey to us is subjective.

Hopefully that helps explain the issue.

 

[FrogReaver]

A lot of the classes in 5e have too much attached to the class features, leaving the subclass features a lot less to work with in order to differentiate themselves from each other.

Agree. I’m not sure that’s necessarily a weakness though. Cross class Subclasses in 5e would have felt more samey if they all were obtained at the same level and all had the same power level. I’d often considered that a failure of 5e in not having cookie cutter subclasses - but after reflecting on this thread I’m not sure I’d classify that as a failure anymore.

 

[Imaro]

To me 5e makes characters within a subclass barely different For instance as an example no subclass is more different than an Eldritch Knight and yet nobody will pretend an Eldritch Knight is a good substitute for a Wizard note that is probably the biggest difference and still meh its not a wizard and yet they expect me to see a BM or PDK as a Warlord or the Cavalier/BM similarly are only in function a very limited defender.

Its being innadequate or half way a defender with enemies easily able to bypass you (except and extremely limited amount of times) just as its being an innadequate leader with barely a hint of aiding the whole team once in a blue (Battlemaster able to help one guy with thp the single target specialist remains a single target specialist),

And its really not just one ability it seems to be virtually any of the interesting ones were excised. No your rogue cannot have blinding barrage but hey he can dodge.

My monk in 4e can rush past enemies and launch an attack at each and every as he passes. (easy to bite off more than you can chew but that is rather interesting too.

The best swordmage in 4e were the shielding ones ie pretty good defenders and sure enough nowhere to be seen and all back to using strength/dexterity alone for physical attacks

Maybe you should stop thinking in 4e terms... In other words does 5e ever use the words defender, leader, striker or controller? If not why are you trying to shoehorn the classes into those roles?

 

[Garthanos]

To say nothing of the shared spell lists. When Clerics, Bards, Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, Paladins, Warlocks, Rangers, and Rogues all cast Hold Person (and why wouldn't they, considering its effectiveness), game starts feeling very much "samey" (whatever that means).

This bothered me as a it is a real loss of flavor in my opinion.... like the poured bleach on the game.

 

[Garthanos]

In other words does 5e ever use the words defender, leader, striker or controller?

Words have meaning whether you use them or not and approach to accomplishing combat is both easy to read regardless and how much or in the 5e world how little as subclass can change that approach its pretty obvious even if I use those particular words or not which is why that sentence included saying an Eldritch knight is not a Wizard its a partial wizard any more than a PDk (a partial support character) is a Warlord. (a fully effective support character)

Sub classes are never the full monty they cannot do a full shift without obviating the main class arguably they probably should not then why do you have the primary class ... acting otherwise for ones where the full deal is non-existent seems silly.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree. I'll list several 5e spells I consider very different:

Firebolt
Silent Image
Plane Shift
Bless
Goodberry
Resurrection
Arcane Eye
Clone
Mordinkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Eternalness
Fabricate
Modify Memory

These types of spells are why I wonder 4e power more samey than 5e spells. I would liked to have seen more 4e utility powers that did things like those.

Because in 4e, those aren't powers. they are rituals.

You...	in 3e...	in 4e...	in 5e...
...attack with a dagger	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's an attack
...attack with a staff to trip	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's an maneuver
...attack with a rapier to disarm	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's a manuever
...attack with a divinely flaming sword	it's an attack with a magic weapon	it's an attack power	it's a spell then an attack
..attack with a fist to stun	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's a class feature
...charge with an axe	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's an attack from a feat
...attack with a bow at 2 goblin	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's an attack from a feat
...cast bless	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast cure light wounds	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast ray of frost	it's a spell	it's an attack power	it's a spell
...cast disguise self	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast animal messenger	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell (ritual)
...cast raise dead	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast tree stride	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast knock	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast magic mouth	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell (ritual)
...use eldritch blast	it's a spell-like ability	it's an arcane attack power	it's a spell
...use eldritch spear	it's an invocation	it's a arcane attack spell	it's an invocation
...use dark one's own luck	it's an invocation	it's a class feature	it's a class feature

personal
preference

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Because in 4e, those aren't powers. they are rituals.

You...	in 3e...	in 4e...	in 5e...
...attack with a dagger	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's an attack
...attack with a staff to trip	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's an maneuver
...attack with a rapier to disarm	it's an attack	it's an attack power	it's a manuever
...attack with a divinely flaming sword	it's an attack with a magic weapon	it's an attack power	it's a spell then an attack
..attack with a fist to stun	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's a class feature
...charge with an axe	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's an attack from a feat
...attack with a bow at 2 goblin	it's an attack from a feat	it's an attack power	it's an attack from a feat
...cast bless	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast cure light wounds	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast ray of frost	it's a spell	it's an attack power	it's a spell
...cast disguise self	it's a spell	it's an utility power	it's a spell
...cast animal messenger	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell (ritual)
...cast raise dead	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast tree stride	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast knock	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell
...cast magic mouth	it's a spell	it's a ritual	it's a spell (ritual)
...use eldritch blast	it's a spell-like ability	it's an arcane attack power	it's a spell
...use eldritch spear	it's an invocation	it's a arcane attack spell	it's an invocation
...use dark one's own luck	it's an invocation	it's a class feature	it's a class feature

personal
preference

Yes. Perhaps. But title of the thread is "Are powers samey," not "Are 4e characters samey."