D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[doctorbadwolf]

I would add a quasi-quantitative assessment of the uniqueness of the abilities the classes get as well. Class to class 4e powers TYPICALLY weren't that unique from each other. Abilities like reckless attack and action surge and divine smite and uncanny dodge all are extremely different from one another.

At least compare apples to apples in both cases. Uncanny Dodge is about as different from Deflect Missiles or Shield as 3 4e defensive powers from 3 classes would generally be. It’s about as different from Reckless Attack as a defensive power and an offensive power from the same class might be.

 

[Don Durito]

Well, no. People use imprecise language all the time to indicate factual statements (ie statements about the factual state of things).
As for the pedantry regarding the word itself, jargon words are words. No one outside TTRPG gaming uses “crit”, but it’s absolutely a word.

Really after all that you still think it's pedantry?

Oh well.

 

[Garthanos]

The abilities with effects in 5e were totally unique to the class that had them (4e powers effects were typically shared across many classes)

As opposed to every martial class getting a trip and strike take down and a press attack and a grab and strike? i think that is blatant bull. I suppose shared across every martial class and exactly the same is not samey its the same and that is completely different.

In 4e that grapple strike is a specialist trick not even something every other fighter can do let alone every one who fights with weapons

 

[Garthanos]

My 4e fighter can at-will rush into a clump of enemies and mark each and every... with an at-will and the Cavalier has no way of duplicating that or many other abilities its a defender specialist trick that is not available to every other defending class in 4e either.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My 4e fighter can at-will rush into a clump of enemies and mark each and every... with an at-will and the Cavalier has no way of duplicating that or many other abilities its a defender specialist trick that is not available to every other defending class in 4e either.

They aren’t the same edition of the game, man. It’s okay if some functionalities don’t port over super well. Defending the party is different in 5e. It is what it is.

 

[Garthanos]

Defending the party is different in 5e. It is what it is.

To me 5e makes characters within a subclass barely different For instance as an example no subclass is more different than an Eldritch Knight and yet nobody will pretend an Eldritch Knight is a good substitute for a Wizard note that is probably the biggest difference and still meh its not a wizard and yet they expect me to see a BM or PDK as a Warlord or the Cavalier/BM similarly are only in function a very limited defender.

Its being innadequate or half way a defender with enemies easily able to bypass you (except and extremely limited amount of times) just as its being an innadequate leader with barely a hint of aiding the whole team once in a blue (Battlemaster able to help one guy with thp the single target specialist remains a single target specialist),

And its really not just one ability it seems to be virtually any of the interesting ones were excised. No your rogue cannot have blinding barrage but hey he can dodge.

My monk in 4e can rush past enemies and launch an attack at each and every as he passes. (easy to bite off more than you can chew but that is rather interesting too.

The best swordmage in 4e were the shielding ones ie pretty good defenders and sure enough nowhere to be seen and all back to using strength/dexterity alone for physical attacks

 

[Garthanos]

It is what it is.

reduced to a door stop is what it is...

 

[Aldarc]

When Group A asserts that something feels "the samey" or "video-gamey" and then Group B challenges them to substantiate that or provides contrary evidence, but then some in Group A shifts to then saying that it's "subjective" and that "it feels samey" rather than substantiate that while continuing to pepper the conversation with positive assertions about the object of inquiry, then the appeal to "subjectivity" comes across as an attempt to make their criticisms or assertions free from reproach. Maxperson seems to even be admitting as much. It's a fairly clear attempt to equivocate between objective and subjective. It allows for Group A to keep making their objective assertions while using subjectivity as their line of defense/retreat.

If I went on this forum and said that "5e's design is gobbly-goop garbage," then people on this forum would sure as Hades expect me to back up my assertion with evidence regardless of whether or not it was "subjective" or it could be proven and not because it was rooted in vague notions of "feels."

That's why the most interesting and on-point perspectives from Group A are those that don't retreat to an appeal to subjectivity as a defense or even equivocate between vague notions of "samey," but actually addresses how the game design of 4e cultivates a particular experience when played in accordance with the system rules.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Then almost everything in almost every D&D based rpg ever is basically the same.

I disagree. I'll list several 5e spells I consider very different:

Firebolt
Silent Image
Plane Shift
Bless
Goodberry
Resurrection
Arcane Eye
Clone
Mordinkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Eternalness
Fabricate
Modify Memory

These types of spells are why I wonder 4e power more samey than 5e spells. I would liked to have seen more 4e utility powers that did things like those.

 

[Eric V]

But, none of these are actually true.

The differences between combat styles in 5e are minimal - effectively a minor bonus depending on what you are doing - +2 for archer, -5 vs one attack/round for defensive style, +1 or so for great weapon fighting damage. None of the abilities with effects in 5e are totally unique to any class. None. The fighter combat styles are shared by two other classes. And, the recycle rate is the same for 4e and 5e - short rest or long rest.

To say nothing of the shared spell lists. When Clerics, Bards, Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, Paladins, Warlocks, Rangers, and Rogues all cast Hold Person (and why wouldn't they, considering its effectiveness), game starts feeling very much "samey" (whatever that means).