D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Maxperson]

Instead, we get this bizarre argument that 4e specifically is "too samey" even when all other editions of D&D have as much or more samey-ness, and objectively so; people take pains to point it out. Then, when confronted with those objective details, it becomes "well, that's just my opinion."

There's no argument (premises leading to a conclusion) to engage with. Seems to me, in a discussion, there should be a sound position one could engage with. When an argument seems to be forming, there are contradictions within, and people making the argument just ignore them.

It's telling that you cannot respond to the content, so you attack and insult the person.

 

[Maxperson]

Instead, we get this bizarre argument that 4e specifically is "too samey" even when all other editions of D&D have as much or more samey-ness, and objectively so; people take pains to point it out. Then, when confronted with those objective details, it becomes "well, that's just my opinion."

Do you even realize that the bolded argument that you just put forth = "There is an objective level of subjectivity in all editions of D&D."?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I haven't been following this thread. Has anyone mentioned the possibility that powers seemed samey in 4E, because the tactical nature of the game meant that no single power was significant enough to end an encounter outright? In other editions, the abilities that really stick out are the ones that ended an encounter instantly - fireball, color spray, dominate - and everything else got lumped together as "also contributing, I guess". In 4E, there are no encounter-ending abilities, so everything gets lumped into that last category.

 

[Garthanos]

I haven't been following this thread. Has anyone mentioned the possibility that powers seemed samey in 4E, because the tactical nature of the game meant that no single power was significant enough to end an encounter outright? In other editions, the abilities that really stick out are the ones that ended an encounter instantly - fireball, color spray, dominate - and everything else got lumped together as "also contributing, I guess". In 4E, there are no encounter-ending abilities, so everything gets lumped into that last category.

i think it was brought forward in the context of rituals and how they were much more costly and also tuned to be useful but not as overwhelming.as in 3e

 

[Aldarc]

And yet, and yet, you expect to be taken seriously when you claim that 4e is more samey than 5e. We're just supposed to accept that as a fact, when you have not presented any criteria for why, not presented any proof, and all we have is your claim that one is more samey than the other. You're arguing from conclusion.

Put it another way, why should I accept your opinion as anything other than complete fabrication?

Exactly. If something can't be proven to be "samey" because of "subjectivity," why do people make the assertion as if it could be proven?

 

[Aldarc]

Heh. It's actually funny @Aldarc. I 50% agree with @lowkey13. He has the situation right, but, he reversed the roles. Because 4e players would LOVE to be able to talk about the game, be able to discuss warlords or damage on a miss or various other things, without having folks come bombing in to tell us repeatedly how 4e sucks, was a commercial failure, the rules are garbage, too samey, too video gamey, too board gamey, not really a role playing game, not really D&D, etc.

IOW, we're not the folks complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue. We're not the ones going into discussions between people who enjoy something with the express purpose of disrupting the conversation, over and over again, in order to "prove" that this thing that is being talked about is bad.

@lowkey13, you really might want to reexamine your view here and decide which side of the conversation you are actually engaging with. Do you really see 4e fans jumping into every single 5e thread to threadcrap how bad 5e is, or, is it the reverse? How many times do warlord threads have to get shut down before it becomes rather obvious which side is arguing that Rey is a Mary Sue?

This is what makes the comparison to people calling Rey a Mary Sue a flat comparison. How is being a vocal supporter of the marginalized, red-headed stepchild of D&D equivalent to being a toxic hater of a lead female character of the Star Wars sequels? It completely misidentifies the different roles of participants. Slamming the character of Rey with the hollow criticism of being a "Mary Sue," for example, is more akin to accusing 4e of being "samey." It starts with an oft-repeated 'criticism' of a piece of entertainment that fans of that entertainment asking others to substantiate and justify. Fans of Rey asking critics to substantiate how she is a "Mary Sue" being more akin to fans of 4e to substantiate how 4e powers are "samey."

So can anyone tell me how this comparison between 4e fans and toxic haters of Rey is not meant to be insultingly condescending to 4e fans and paint them in a negative light?

 

[Hussar]

Calling someone a liar, because they didn't prove their opinion to your satisfaction is pretty hokey dude. An opinion under such circumstances is not a "fabrication."

Sorry but you’re the one insisting you don’t need to provide any proof.

Again an unsubstantiated opinion is worthless.

 

[Hussar]

How can something be samey with itself?

And thus, you get the point.

Had 4e actually done this - simply pooled the similar powers together the way 5e does - then you wouldn't find the powers samey. There wouldn't be fifteen powers that do, more or less, the same thing. There'd be one power that does exactly the same thing that would be accessed by different classes.

However, the same works the other way. Had they made a separate spell and power list for each class in 5e, repeating all of the effects which are more or less the same, then you would find 5e to be samey as well.

Like I said, it's all about presentation. They both have very similar levels of ... well... similarity between the classes. But, because the stuff that's similar isn't listed with any one class, you only see the differences.

 

[Eric V]

Sorry but you’re the one insisting you don’t need to provide any proof.

Again an unsubstantiated opinion is worthless.

And no one has accused anyone of lying...just as no one has told anyone else what to think, and certainly, no one has accused people of having brain damage.

 

[Eric V]

...and given the beginning, and this ending, and the remainder of your posts in the thread (which, yes, I have been reading this entire time) we are done. Thanks.

?!

Was I not supposed to take those terms ("Grand project," "amazing and awesome power," etc.) as childish nonsense? Because...