D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Teemu]

Enough are similar that the impression of powers being samey is a reasonable one given the criteria I cited earlier.

My argument is that the sameyness impression is based on 2 factors: presentation and lack of knowledge of the full extent of 4e powers (and rituals).

If I present the 3e spells cure minor wounds, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, and cure critical wounds as evidence that the spells of that edition can be samey, I’d be ignoring all the other spells that most definitely are not. The same if I used the spells lesser acid orb, lesser electricity orb, lesser cold orb, lesser fire orb, lesser force orb, and lesser sound orb, which while nearly identical, are not the totality of what 3e spells can offer.

Your example of a few specific martial at-will single target weapon powers is similarly misleading. As I said, you can cherry pick spells, feats, items, etc. in all editions to make the impression that they are samey—but that’s not the actual factual truth.

 

[Garthanos]

Your example of a few specific martial at-will single target weapon powers is similarly misleading. As I said, you can cherry pick spells, feats, items, etc. in all editions to make the impression that they are samey—but that’s not the actual factual truth.

Even the cherry picked set included distinctive differences on them ones you have to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend do not matter to consider them the same.

 

[Imaro]

And? Are you saying that OAs don't come up? Don't matter?

Nope didn't say that but they don't come up every round and this is an at-will which means it's also being used to close distance just as much or more than to aoid OA's.

I'm telling you why the powers are different, both in their abstract rules text and in the play they lead to. I'm basing it on actual play experience.

I know what you're telling me and I get it. Now do you understand what I'm telling you and my point? And we've both played and run 4e so the rep and cred boasts are pointless.

And? You asked whether the four powers "look samey or seem extremeley similarin execution on the grid?" I've answered why I think they don't.

Yes I know... Oh, I'm sorry am I not allowed to reply in turn? Maynbe I'm misinterpreting the tone of your post but I thought this was a discussion and so I can in turn reply once you've posted... That is how this works... right?

I suppose if someone doesn't know the rules, and/or doesn't actually read the powers closely, and/or plays in a game where it makes no difference whether PC A moves, PC B moves or the orc they're fighting moves then the differences between the powers wouldn't come out. I've never played at such a table but I'm prpared to believe that they exist.

Maybe that was one of the reasons 4e fell flat with so many, the expectation that everyone was the type of player that would not only read through these numerous little individual rule snippets but also study and learn the system, jargon, etc and be able to conceptualize it enough away from actual play in order to make the type of distinctions you can between these powers. IMO that's asking alot to participate in a leisure game of pretend.

 

[Imaro]

Even the cherry picked set included distinctive differences on them ones you have to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend do not matter to consider them the same.

Hey you need to calm down, you're borderline rude when posting and it's irritating... especially since you have to post consistently.

 

[Imaro]

My argument is that the sameyness impression is based on 2 factors: presentation and lack of knowledge of the full extent of 4e powers (and rituals).

If I present the 3e spells cure minor wounds, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, and cure critical wounds as evidence that the spells of that edition can be samey, I’d be ignoring all the other spells that most definitely are not. The same if I used the spells lesser acid orb, lesser electricity orb, lesser cold orb, lesser fire orb, lesser force orb, and lesser sound orb, which while nearly identical, are not the totality of what 3e spells can offer.

Your example of a few specific martial at-will single target weapon powers is similarly misleading. As I said, you can cherry pick spells, feats, items, etc. in all editions to make the impression that they are samey—but that’s not the actual factual truth.

But a ton of people (mostly 4e proponents) have claimed the spells in 3e are samey...

 

[Teemu]

But a ton of people (mostly 4e proponents) have claimed the spells in 3e are samey...

Yes, some spells in 3e (and 5e) are samey. Do you disagree?

 

[Garthanos]

I am pretty sure Lowkey isnt a 4e proponent and she is a major thrower of spell lists makes casters kind of samey its not really the same as saying the spells are all the same I happen to agree it does.

 

[Imaro]

Yes, some spells in 3e (and 5e) are samey. Do you disagree?

Nope...

IMO it's more that the sameyness many felt with 4e was the result of perception caused by numerous factors in 4e's design and presentation.

 

[Imaro]

I am pretty sure Lowkey isnt a 4e proponent and she is a major thrower of spell lists makes casters kind of samey its not really the same as saying the spells are all the same I happen to agree it does.

Sigh That's why I said mostly... and I didn't even disagree with the assertion.

 

[Teemu]

Nope...

IMO it's more that the sameyness many felt with 4e was the result of perception caused by numerous factors in 4e's design and presentation.

Yes, tons of people have impressions and beliefs about all kinds of things, impressions and beliefs that are not based on factual truth. The impression of 4e powers being samey is one these, as the impression is based on the uniform presentation of powers and the lack of knowledge of what 4e powers actually encompass.