D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

I don't want to be rude and there is no way that I will ever be able to explain to your satisfaction what my issues with 4E were.

Have a good one.

No problem enjoy the pandemic break umm sort of.

 

[Garthanos]

However, the same works the other way. Had they made a separate spell and power list for each class in 5e, repeating all of the effects which are more or less the same, then you would find 5e to be samey as well.

trade out one samey for samey in another place if you will...

 

[Garthanos]

Had 4e actually done this - simply pooled the similar powers together the way 5e does - then you wouldn't find the powers samey. There wouldn't be fifteen powers that do, more or less, the same thing. There'd be one power that does exactly the same thing that would be accessed by different classes.

And maybe they would have put modifiers on a generic action you can do a dash but since you have extra attack you can do an attack at the end and elsewhere in specific class since you have this fighting style you get a +con modifier damage if you make an extra attack while dashing.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So I'm going to have to disagree with this. I'm a stickler on the subjective/objective thing.

Here are my thoughts. "Similar" sounds more official than "same-y," but it isn't more objective. Let me explain why I think that.

Objective requires the ability to refer to an outside source; it is not dependent on the thoughts, feelings, or perceptions of any individual or groups.* An objective statement must be capable of being proven true or false. Bonus fun fact- a false statement can be an objective statement. For example, the following could be objective statements:
1. Tom Brady has signed with the Bucs. (False, as of the time I am writing this. He hasn't signed ... yet).
2. The sun is hotter than the moon. (Temperature is capable of being proven)
3. Idaho is a state.
4. Potatoes are a fish.

These can all be verified independently. However, when you start getting into comparatives or superlatives, you often get into trouble. "Hotter" is usually okay- temperature can be verified. But "better"? "Cooler design?" "Best running back ever?" Those tend to lead to subjective statements.

And that gets us to same-y / similar. Same-y (or "saminess") looks and feels subjective because of the construction of the word. It's an informal neologism. It's the whole "noun + y = adjective" that screams, "Ima make a personal and informal statement."

But while similar looks more official, it's still subjective. Unless you are discussing, say, math, the similarity of things will be subjective. I'll give you a joke-y (see what I did there?) example:
What two of these three things are the most similar: A raven, a crow, and a writing desk?

Spoiler

A raven and a writing desk, as Poe wrote on both.

See what I did there? I used different criteria than what you were expecting. This was for purposes of the joke, but I hoped it illustrated that the criteria used matter!

Which leads to the following two points:

A. When people are discussing (or arguing) about a subjective opinion, they usually are marshaling evidence, objective evidence, to support them. But the disconnect occurs because the people don't agree on the criteria that goes into the subjective opinion - just like the example I used.

To be more specific ... people are discussing the best QB of all time. You can discuss yards thrown, or touch downs, or adjust for era, or any or a number of different issues, but if someone asserts that it is championships won, then they will use that objective fact to support their subjective opinion (Tom Brady). That doesn't make them correct, but that's how this always works; people are debating the criteria used to support subjective opinions.


B. Then there is the @doctorbadwolf counter (as I call it), or the "Get the Led Out" Gambit. What if an opinion is objectively wrong? Put another way, what if someone says, "Yeah, but Led Zeppelin sucks!" Doesn't everyone know that the Zepp is so awesome? I mean, even if you don't love all things Robert Plant, you have to respect how great they are, right?

And the answer to that is .... no. Yes, there can be culturally constructed and agreed-upon things (this band is good, this food is good, this person is attractive by current standards, and so on), but they are still subjective. Unless you can point to the specific agreed-upon criteria to use to make the objective statement, it's still a subjective statement. In other words, the "Get the Led Out" Gambit is simply a more advanced version of the appeal to popularity; most people agree that X is good, even if they don't like it.


whew

Okay, that's a lot. Again. Man, this is like, what, every few months?




*Yes, yes, there can be some deeper philosophical objections to this, but whatever.

Well, no, LED Zepellin is objectively good, because “good at music” isn’t based on feelings or bias, but on technical skill.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I had a longer reply but ... meh. Why bother. It's a dead edition.

Want to start a thread on how 4E was the best game ever? Go for it!

Feel that 5E has an issue with "sameyness"? Start a thread.

Just don't put a leading label that's really a bait-and-switch excuse to get your righteous anger going when people try to express their point of view and try to explain it in terms of the OP.

Oh, and get the chip off your shoulder and accept that it's just a freakin' game and that people are allowed to like or dislike it. People have their own opinions even if we aren't always perfect at expressing them.

Considering how you keep coming back into the thread to rant about it and how “dead” 4e is, it really seems more like you have some sort of chip to deal with.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure, sure.

Right now ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
I am an anti-Christ
I am an anarchist
Don't know what I want
But I know how to get it
I want to destroy the passerby
'Cause I want to be anarchy
No dogs body

Two things: not all that is good will be successful, and not all that’s successful will be good. Even if we restrict the discussion to the simplest usage of “good”.

As well, “a band” isn’t a thing. A rock back, or a punk band, or a funk band, is a thing. Within the context of their genre, a punk band is good if they hit hard, have a coherent but not melodic sound, etc. ie, a band can be mediocre musically, and still be a good punk band.

Even if they’re wildly overrated.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah. While it's capacity as a reference manual is great, the 4e PHB is not as enjoyable (to me) to just sit and read as say, the 5e one. Or the 1e one. Or...

The 2e one beats 1e hands down and the Book of Feywild is better than either if you are just reading

 

[Aldarc]

The 2e one beats 1e hands down and the Book of Feywild is better than either if you are just reading

Threats to the Nentir Vale. One of the best D&D books of the past two decades. I want more TTRPG books like this. It's a mini-setting with plot hooks and monsters.

 

[Garthanos]

Having said that, you are right that it's difficult to create a "bad" character in 5e.

If all you are after is a striker flavor