Are Rituals Vaporware?

Defiler said:
What are things like Religion, Bluff, and Stealth, if not non-combat skills?

Religion: Know things about monsters, do you can kill them. Willing to bet it will allow for extra damage against undead.
Bluff: Used for feinting in combat.
Stealth: Sneak up on monsters.

Do you really think there will be a single skill in 4e which doesn't have at least one in-combat use?
 

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Lizard said:
Religion: Know things about monsters, do you can kill them. Willing to bet it will allow for extra damage against undead.
Bluff: Used for feinting in combat.
Stealth: Sneak up on monsters.

Do you really think there will be a single skill in 4e which doesn't have at least one in-combat use?
Hmm. So, you have discerned the FIENDISH PLAN behind 4E, that there will be NO noncombat information, because the designers have somehow contrived to find a use in combat for every skill no matter how benign! Curse their inventiveness!
 

Derren said:
That is the most useful part of your post. It should give you a bit to think.


Please, cut out the snarkiness, or you will find yourself with plenty of time to think.
 


hong and lizard: Guys, this thread was supposed to be about rituals, and you're talking about just about everything except rituals. I (and others) have to wade through a ton of posts by you two on other things to find the on-topic thoughts in here.

You are more than free to have threads on all the other topics, but in here, can you two please keep it a little more on-topic? Thanks kindly.
 


hong said:
to be substantive information. Because, after all, there is more to D&D and the campaign than combat and killing monsters.

I don't.

The passages you quoted do not require tiers; they could easily be rephrased as "General guidelines for campaign structure". Change "at paragon tier" to "around eleventh level" and you're done. The only bits of substance described the Cool New Combat Powers you'd get.

I really wonder, sometimes, at the 4e supporters, who seem shocked, amazed, and overwhelmed by the fact 4e lets them keep doing exactly what gamers have been doing since, oh, 1973. Here's some revolutionary features of 4e:

You can MAKE STUFF UP! Wow. I guess I was dreaming yesterday when, burned out after a long week, I went to DM my regular 3x game and just improvised my ass off, using PCGen to make up one major bad guy (a gnoll bandit king) in the car (asked my wife to drive, used my laptop), then making his followers up in the minutes before the fight by looking at gnolls and deciding they'd have roughly 2 more warrior levels, so +2 BAB, and lessee weapon focus for a +1 and kick the base saves up by 1, that ought to be good enough for a slaughter. (During some player-on-player interaction, I did have a minute to get them statted in PCGen, too, so the final figures were accurate).

The game CHANGES WHEN YOU LEVEL! Wow, that's different, too, because it's not like brown box D&D had rules for establishing kingdoms and collecting taxes or anything...

You can just USE MONSTERS OUT OF THE BOOK! Yeah, because my two+ feet of monster manuals don't have any functional stat blocks in them as it stands...

Sorry to delve into bitter here, but if the best 4e supporters can come up with is the moral equivalent of "And the new 2008 Ford model family cars will have FOUR wheels and BRAKES!", I find it hard to share in the enthusiasm.

Back on the main topic, I *do* like the idea of ritual magic. I hope it's cool, because it certainly CAN be if done right. I don't like that it seems to be used as a cheap way to balance combat/noncombat strength and to limit possibly creative uses of "utility" spells in combat. I know 4e had a three year development cycle, but so much of it seems, from an outsiders perspective, to be rushed, as if a lot of dev time was spent on Really Neat Ideas that ultimately failed in playtest and substitutes needed to be found, quickly.
 

hong said:
Hmm. So, you have discerned the FIENDISH PLAN behind 4E, that there will be NO noncombat information, because the designers have somehow contrived to find a use in combat for every skill no matter how benign! Curse their inventiveness!

Like Hong said, it's hardly a bad thing to be able to use these skills both in and out of combat. But if you absolutely must have non-combat skills, how about History, Streetwise, and Diplomacy?
 

Mort_Q said:
Is feinting a skill based mechanic in 4e, or is it abstracted through powers?

Don't know for sure, and perhaps I am totally wrong, but based on everything we've seen so far, Bluff WILL have direct combat applicability. I honestly feel that no skill in 4e will not have a "good reason" to take it, meaning, a way it can be used directly to aid in combat. I'm not sure how History will be so used, but I do respect the creativity of the 4e developers as greater than my own. I am sure they will find a way.

Remember: No "wrong" choices, and, from comments made by the developers, a "wrong" choice is any choice which does not increase your combat power. If History is only used in Skill Challenges, it is a "wrong" choice according to the stated 4e design ethos.

This is my last off-topic reply. Sorry to all.
 

Lizard said:
One might. One wonders why the 4e designers didn't. While you are as free to roleplay in 4e as you were in any other edition, there's nothing added to the game to enhance or drive roleplaying -- no non-combat skills, no flaw/merit system, for example, no rules for contacts and connections, nothing which adds mechanics to anything other than hitting people with sticks. Not only are there no such things, they have been explicitly disdained by the developers as trivial and unworthy of mechanics, with the infamous, "Yeah, whatever, if you want to be a blacksmith, just write it on your character sheet, not like it ever matters" and "If a game session ever involved a Craft check, you weren't have enough fun" comments.

One of the 3.5 mechanics the group I game in found really drive roleplaying is Affiliations, as per 3.5 PHII, especially in the Savage Tide adventure arc. It's a late invention, and not core, but I really hope it gets ported to 4 as soon as possible...
 
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