Are Rituals Vaporware?

[Lizard]

But if you're just going to turn around and nerf the powers with counter-powers, why not skip the middleman and simply come up with less abusable powers in the first place?

This is fine, if that's the established rule -- "Teleports only work for thus-and-such locations". What you seemed to be proposing, though, was that teleport spells recognize dramatic necessity. The problem is, this concept is pretty much hard-wired into a lot of the known 4e rules, so it's not as ludicrous as it sounds.

 

[Waneta]

Further, such broad powers aren't even very true to the vast majority of the genre inspiration for D&D. Specific instances of powers can be far easier to control than simply granting the keys to the kingdom. I think that portal based and teleportation rituals to specified locations is a much wiser choice than: you get a ritual that teleports you anywhere your can name. The latter is just setting expectations up to be dashed.

I was thinking that this is likely. Rather than having the ritual Teleport, which would work much like previous editions in that it can conceivably take you anywhere, it would make sense to have Teleport [specific place]. That way, the DM can allow his players to travel across large distances quickly by giving them books to teach them teleports to the major cities, he can give them a one way ticket to some far off place with a scroll, and the villains are the only ones who can teleport into their lairs because they're the only one who created and then learned Teleport [evil guy's lair].

 

[FourthBear]

This is fine, if that's the established rule -- "Teleports only work for thus-and-such locations". What you seemed to be proposing, though, was that teleport spells recognize dramatic necessity.

I was more attempting to make the case for specified location teleportation as a way to avoid the whole issue, rather than suggesting that the teleporation ritual should be: Teleport: Dramatically Appropriate Only. I do think that in practice the effect will be somewhat the same, but it can be managed to avoid the overt appearance of location favoritism.

 

[hong]

Um, no.

They were made with roles for combat by the people who designed the game.

If all paragon paths were for was extra ways to kill people, they wouldn't be required. Just have more class abilities. The point of having a new tier is because paragon characters are more than just heroic characters with bigger numbers. They play a different role within the milieu, as champions of a cause, protectors of a realm, legendary heroes, and so on. If that means "combat", well, then, I guess everything in the game is combat.

This makes them, at least in part, quite literally designed for killing things.

It also makes their primary purpose something other than just killing things.

That doesn't preclude them from other uses of course.

Exactly.

 

[Rhenny]

Rituals and Roleplaying

For a purely fictional, fantasy-world feel, and roleplaying, I like the idea of ritual casting. It emulates the behavior of many great fantasy novel magic users. In the novels by authors like Michael Morecock (Elric and other Eternal Champion novels), Fritz Leiber (Fafherd and the Gray Mouser), Ursula LeGuin (Earthsea) even Tolkein, Wizards seem to spend more time doing ritual castings than actual combat castings. (Please excuse me if I've spelled any of the authors or works incorrectly...It's been a long time since I've read even my own favorites).

 

[Derren]

It also makes their primary purpose something other than just killing things.

Yes, because the Storm Warden is so much about social interaction. I am sure Blade Storm and Cold Steel Hurricane have many out of combat applications.

Paragon Path is are simply new ways to kill things, nothing more.

 

[hong]

Yes, because the Storm Warden is so much about social interaction.

Pish tosh, my boy. The storm warden, like all paragon paths, is about new ways to define your relationship with the world. If you are unable to use the provided material to take your campaign in new and different directions, that's your lookout.

I am sure Blade Storm and Cold Steel Hurricane have many out of combat applications.

A paragon path is more than the sum of its parts.

Paragon Path is are simply new ways to kill things, nothing more.

Lorem ipsum dolor.

 

[Lizard]

If all paragon paths were for was extra ways to kill people, they wouldn't be required. Just have more class abilities. The point of having a new tier is because paragon characters are more than just heroic characters with bigger numbers. They play a different role within the milieu, as champions of a cause, protectors of a realm, legendary heroes, and so on. If that means "combat", well, then, I guess everything in the game is combat.

You're seeing a lot more here than I am. Other than the name, there's nothing that says that. Maybe I am misremembering, but I can't think of the paragon paths granting any out-of-combat powers or abilities. There's no mechanics to support your assertion. The difference between the paragon paths, mechanically, is the difference between "kill things with a sword", "kill things with fire", or "kill things by sneaking up on them". I don't remember any bonuses to Diplomacy under certain circumstances, or rights to social benefits (such as land or legal authority) or any such thing. Saying "Well, yeah, but the DM can just add those in!" just proves the OP's point --- there's almost no support, MECHANICALLY, for out of combat activities, other than skill challenges. (And there's no evident support for mechanics to make you better at them)

Same with Tiers. There's some fluff text about how this tier means that, but are there any mechanics? No. The only mechanical differences are those which affect a)killing monsters, and, b)taking their stuff. When you hit 11th level, do you get lands? A title? A retinue of servants? No. You get the ability to wear one magic ring. There's nothing which happens, MECHANICALLY, at 11th level which really changes the kind of adventures you can/should have; you can keep on killing monsters like you always did. Looking at the epic monsters we've seen, this won't ever change -- none of the epic monsters have town, nation, or world affecting powers. They are no more threatening to the world or the multiverse than an orc is, and you're no more heroic fighting them than you were fighting an orc. The numbers are bigger, that's all.

If you want more from the game than that, you can add it as the DM -- but you could do that in any edition, and 3rd edition, at least, had more mechanics for it. (Leadership feat, for one, and PrCs based on social position and designed to fit roles in a guild or society)

 

[hong]

There's some fluff text about how this tier means that

Exactly.

 

[Derren]

Lorem ipsum dolor.

That is the most useful part of your post. It should give you a bit to think.

What is a Paragon path? A name and some combat powers. That's it. Nothing which in any way changes the characters relationship with the world except how he kills things. That is first and foremost a role playing thing which is not influenced by combat powers.