MasterOfHeaven
First Post
I mostly DM, though once in a great while I will play for a bit. In all of the games I've seen, the Rogue class seems to be mostly extra baggage. My players don't play Rogues anymore, especially once they get to levels 10+, and I was wondering if anyone else had this problem.
The problem, as I see it, is there is nothing the Rogue can do a Cleric or Wizard can't do better. For example:
Scouting:
This has always been a place where the Rogue is supposed to be essential. But he's not. A Wizard can use Inivisibility, Fly and Silence to scout with far more safety and speed than a Rogue ever could. But why even bother to do that? After all, those are three spells that could be used to blast the enemy. Just cast Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Arcane Eye, Scrying or some other Divination spell.
Now you don't even have to risk a party member to check out the opposition, so you are taking far less risk for the same, if not better, reward. A Rogue will be detected about as often as a Scrying spell, considering the large amount of creatures that have Blindsight, Tremorsense, or simply high Listen or Spot scores.
And like I said, this seems to get worse at higher levels. I have never seen, or even heard of, a higher level party sending the Rogue to scout. They always just cast Scry, even when they know it's almost certain they're going to be detected. The Rogue is really outclassed in this area, from what I've seen.
Information Gathering:
This is a joke. The Rogue can't even compete in this area, thanks to spells like Divination, Commune, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, and so on. The Rogues skills like Gather Information and Diplomacy don't come close to the amount of information you can get from such spells.
Interrogation:
Also a joke. Who needs Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy when you have Charm Person, Discern Lies, Geas/Quest (NO Save), and let's not forget the spellcaster knows whether or not his spell succeeded, while the Rogue has to rely on Sense Motive.
Combat:
If the Rogue can sneak attack, he's *somewhat useful*. If he can't, he's about the worst character in combat by far. And let's list the things that negate sneak attack: Concealment of any kind, (which means a simple Blur spell prevents the Rogue from sneak attacking) facing Undead, Constructs or Plants, facing another high level Rogue or Barbarian, facing someone with Fortified armor, and so on.
And even when the Rogue _can_ sneak attack, he's not that helpful. Most of the time he lacks the BAB to hit the more important enemies, and he does not usually have the hitpoints or AC to stand up to even one Full Attack of an equal level Fighter.
A Rogue also has to rely either on his Bluff skill, which means he'll be attacking one round less every time he uses it, on a dicey proposition, or he has to rely on another teammate to help him flank, making him far less self sufficient than other classes in combat. A Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer or even Bard is way better to have around than a Rogue in combat, and once again this disparagy widens when you reach higher levels.
Trap Finding:
This is the one, sole area where the Rogue might be worth having around instead of another class. But there are many ways around traps that other classes can devise, and the Rogue gives up so much in other areas this doesn't really make it worth taking the class.
Anyway, that's just what I've seen in the games I've run and games I've played in. The Rogue only seems useful in very specific circumstances, and the other classes, especially the spellcasters, seem way more useful, again particularly at higher levels. I see more Bards than I see Rogues in the games I run and play in. Does anyone else have this problem, and does anyone else think the Rogue can do stuff other classes can't? Because I just haven't seen that so far.
The problem, as I see it, is there is nothing the Rogue can do a Cleric or Wizard can't do better. For example:
Scouting:
This has always been a place where the Rogue is supposed to be essential. But he's not. A Wizard can use Inivisibility, Fly and Silence to scout with far more safety and speed than a Rogue ever could. But why even bother to do that? After all, those are three spells that could be used to blast the enemy. Just cast Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Arcane Eye, Scrying or some other Divination spell.
Now you don't even have to risk a party member to check out the opposition, so you are taking far less risk for the same, if not better, reward. A Rogue will be detected about as often as a Scrying spell, considering the large amount of creatures that have Blindsight, Tremorsense, or simply high Listen or Spot scores.
And like I said, this seems to get worse at higher levels. I have never seen, or even heard of, a higher level party sending the Rogue to scout. They always just cast Scry, even when they know it's almost certain they're going to be detected. The Rogue is really outclassed in this area, from what I've seen.
Information Gathering:
This is a joke. The Rogue can't even compete in this area, thanks to spells like Divination, Commune, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, Locate Creature, Locate Object, and so on. The Rogues skills like Gather Information and Diplomacy don't come close to the amount of information you can get from such spells.
Interrogation:
Also a joke. Who needs Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy when you have Charm Person, Discern Lies, Geas/Quest (NO Save), and let's not forget the spellcaster knows whether or not his spell succeeded, while the Rogue has to rely on Sense Motive.
Combat:
If the Rogue can sneak attack, he's *somewhat useful*. If he can't, he's about the worst character in combat by far. And let's list the things that negate sneak attack: Concealment of any kind, (which means a simple Blur spell prevents the Rogue from sneak attacking) facing Undead, Constructs or Plants, facing another high level Rogue or Barbarian, facing someone with Fortified armor, and so on.
And even when the Rogue _can_ sneak attack, he's not that helpful. Most of the time he lacks the BAB to hit the more important enemies, and he does not usually have the hitpoints or AC to stand up to even one Full Attack of an equal level Fighter.
A Rogue also has to rely either on his Bluff skill, which means he'll be attacking one round less every time he uses it, on a dicey proposition, or he has to rely on another teammate to help him flank, making him far less self sufficient than other classes in combat. A Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer or even Bard is way better to have around than a Rogue in combat, and once again this disparagy widens when you reach higher levels.
Trap Finding:
This is the one, sole area where the Rogue might be worth having around instead of another class. But there are many ways around traps that other classes can devise, and the Rogue gives up so much in other areas this doesn't really make it worth taking the class.
Anyway, that's just what I've seen in the games I've run and games I've played in. The Rogue only seems useful in very specific circumstances, and the other classes, especially the spellcasters, seem way more useful, again particularly at higher levels. I see more Bards than I see Rogues in the games I run and play in. Does anyone else have this problem, and does anyone else think the Rogue can do stuff other classes can't? Because I just haven't seen that so far.
