Are scry durations too short?

[theNater]

Sure, and as payment you cross the sage's palm with silver. If you're crossing his palm with twenty-one thousand gold pieces in order to gaze into his 10,000 gp deluxe widescreen scrying orb, you might well expect the full length movie rather than just the trailer.

To what end? What is the value of watching a person live their life for 110 minutes?

For movies, it's an entire story, but most people don't go through an entire five-act drama in two hours. Once you see them settling down to dinner with a melancholy expression on their face, do you really need to watch them eat?

 

[Runestar]

For movies, it's an entire story, but most people don't go through an entire five-act drama in two hours. Once you see them settling down to dinner with a melancholy expression on their face, do you really need to watch them eat?

Same reason - you simply cannot know when exactly the crucial moment you are scrying them for will occur, so you will have to treat every second as though it may be that moment. For all you know, that crucial piece of information you seek just might be uttered by him during that fateful dinner you dismissed as irrelevant.

It is like taking a sniper test in the army. You know your target will appear briefly for a few seconds over the course of 3 days. But you do not know when exactly he will occur. So the best bet is to just stay awake at all times. You can short naps, but you run the risk of missing your target. You decide if you want to take that chance. Same with scrying.

Now, 4e's scrying mechanic is entirely contingent on the DM acting as though you had somehow amazingly managed to cast scry at just that right moment to get the exact information you need, and the players accepting it at face value. Maybe it works for you, but I just cannot accept it. I can cast scry as and when I want (even at 3AM in the morning) and still catch my target in whatever act I want him to be in? It may work once, but after 2 or 3 times, this sort of "coincidence" just ends up being far too outlandish for me to swallow.

 

[theNater]

Same reason - you simply cannot know when exactly the crucial moment you are scrying them for will occur, so you will have to treat every second as though it may be that moment. For all you know, that crucial piece of information you seek just might be uttered by him during that fateful dinner you dismissed as irrelevant.

Can you give an example? All I've been looking for since I started this thread is one crucial piece of information that must be acquired through scrying.

The only thing I know of so far that can only be acquired through scrying is the appearance of the target, and that takes only seconds. Everything else I've seen suggested is just as easily acquirable through one of the divination rituals(usually Consult Oracle).

 

[Saeviomagy]

However, with Observe Creature targeting "the killer of the king", a PC can gaze upon the face of the king's killer. This will make it very difficult for the killer to hide, and significantly reduce the chance of mistaken identity mishaps. As far as I know, this is an ability unique to the scrying spells.

Of course the guy has managed to pull off a perfect assassination of the king, is sticking around while maintaining a single identity, and fails to take the possibility of a scry into account.

One of my first questions in this thread, which has yet to be answered, is what an hour-long scry can uniquely provide. The only suggestion I've seen so far for that is a situation in which the PCs know who the enemy is and when they will be making plans. In such a situation, inserting a spy or acquiring an informant is an alternative way to get detailed information on those plans, and the Consult Oracle ritual is able to provide general information on them.

If we're talking about a situation with the same level of robustness and likelyhood as your own scenario, then any situation where the DM decides "you need an hour long scry to do this".

Which beggars the question - why have scry in the game at all?

 

[Ahglock]

How is this related to scrying durations? If the PCs are dealing with foes who will block "find out who they are" scrys, aren't they also dealing with foes who will block "listen in on their planning session" scrys?

Because if the duration were increased it would increase the utility of the spell allowing you to use it in situations outside of the: who murdered the king, apparently someone dumb enough not to protect vs scry farces. You could actually use it for the non-plot breaking parts of magical spying, while still gathering useful information.

 

[Runestar]

Well, at lower lvs anyways, that money spent on scrying could be used to upgrade your eq instead. Which seems like a better use of your resources, since scrying does not appear to afford any real mechanical advantage, nor can you "suit up" as readily as in 3e to better take advantage of any knowledge you may have gleaned. Seems like it is really only useful at epic lvs when 21000gp is considered chump change.

So the conclusion is that scrying costs being so progibitively high is irrelevant because it is useless to begin with?

 

[Mad Hamish]

Carry that logic far enough, though, and you might as well create a ritual called Reveal Plot Point, the material component of which is a large pizza, given to the DM.

We had that one back in 2nd ed.
although 1.5 l bottles of coke also worked.

 

[theNater]

If we're talking about a situation with the same level of robustness and likelyhood as your own scenario, then any situation where the DM decides "you need an hour long scry to do this".

Such as...?

Because if the duration were increased it would increase the utility of the spell allowing you to use it in situations outside of the: who murdered the king, apparently someone dumb enough not to protect vs scry farces. You could actually use it for the non-plot breaking parts of magical spying, while still gathering useful information.

Such as...?

Well, at lower lvs anyways, that money spent on scrying could be used to upgrade your eq instead. Which seems like a better use of your resources, since scrying does not appear to afford any real mechanical advantage, nor can you "suit up" as readily as in 3e to better take advantage of any knowledge you may have gleaned. Seems like it is really only useful at epic lvs when 21000gp is considered chump change.

So the conclusion is that scrying costs being so progibitively high is irrelevant because it is useless to begin with?

Did you really just indicate that a level 24 ritual only being useful at epic levels is a problem?

 

[Runestar]

Did you really just indicate that a level 24 ritual only being useful at epic levels is a problem?

!!!

I misread it as lv14 all along...

Okay, so the cost is peanuts. Only thing left is the issue of its casting time and duration...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Such as...?

You collar a henchman and discover that the bad guys(tm) are having a top secret meeting in a top secret location in one hours time, where the chief bad guy will explain his super secret plan to his inner circle in a presentation that lasts for a little under an hour. And no, henchmen are not invited or even told the location of the top secret meeting.

Guess you'd better be lucky with that 30 second scry!