Are scry durations too short?

[Runestar]

To those who feel that 4e scry is okay, what sort of information do you expect to get out of a 30s scry that justifies the amount of money that has to be expended? While I do agree that 3e divination was arguably too strong (between legend lore, vision, scry amongst others, and complete champion even let you cast them spontaneously), I don't think this justifies 4e nerfing them to such an extent.

Are we expected to always get the most crucial 30s of conversation/information every time we use it? This would mean that in theory at least, it makes no difference when we use it (be it at 3am in the morning or 12 noon), if the DM will set it up such that we will always be able to catch the enemy in the act at that precise moment...

 

[theNater]

I think mostly the scrying rituals just seem like timmy cards: they sound useful, but in actuality you'll almost never find a situation where they have an advantage over, say, investing in the stealth skill.

To those who feel that 4e scry is okay, what sort of information do you expect to get out of a 30s scry that justifies the amount of money that has to be expended?

A scenario relevant to both of these comments:

A king has been messily killed, and the PCs want to avenge him. No-one other than the king and the killer observed. Stealth isn't going to help, and Streetwise and Diplomacy can indicate who might have wanted to kill the king, but don't help if it was some unexpected threat. Speak With Dead only tells you what the king knows, and if he didn't see or couldn't identify the killer is unlikely to help. Consult Oracle can give you a name, but it's easy to go by another name.

However, with Observe Creature targeting "the killer of the king", a PC can gaze upon the face of the king's killer. This will make it very difficult for the killer to hide, and significantly reduce the chance of mistaken identity mishaps. As far as I know, this is an ability unique to the scrying spells.

The sort of "listening in on plans" that seems to be the goal of long duration scrying can be handled by high stealth capabilities(whether skill-based or magically handled) or other rituals("Say, oracle, what's the general strategy the hobgoblins have planned for tomorrow's battle?").

So I ask again: what information can be gained from an hour-long scry that cannot be gained from a 3-round scry and an appropriate divination ritual?

 

[Stogoe]

Runestar and Saeviomagy, your ways of thinking on this issue are so completely orthogonal to mine that I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say. The time when the players are most likely to use Scry is the time when the DM has information to give via Scry.

See, for example, theNater's "who killed the king" example.

 

[Ahglock]

Runestar and Saeviomagy, your ways of thinking on this issue are so completely orthogonal to mine that I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say. The time when the players are most likely to use Scry is the time when the DM has information to give via Scry.

See, for example, theNater's "who killed the king" example.

Which basically means to me its only useful if I go out of my way to make it useful. After a bunch of nothing else works conditions are met, and in a very specific storyline of needing to see someone face, who performed a important enough crime that I'm willing to drop 24,000GP to solve it, and the person is too dumb to get some kind of scrying protection after killing the king, I can get something useful.

Or in other words, never.

 

[Ravingdork]

Where is Osama bin Laden? Is he even still alive?

*Casts scry and figures out the answer to both the above questions and cashes in on the reward a few days later*

Try and convince me that you would not use a Scrying ritual in that, or a similar, situation.

 

[Ahglock]

Where is Osama bin Laden? Is he even still alive?

*Casts scry and figures out the answer to both the above questions and cashes in on the reward a few days later*

Try and convince me that you would not use a Scrying ritual in that, or a similar, situation.

Most likely though you find out that your scying is blocked. For virtually every situation someone can come up with where it would seem like a worthwhile investment to get a mere 30 seconds of scrying time, it would be a much more worthwhile investment for the target to block scrying.

 

[Runestar]

What exactly would you see with scrying?

Say I cast it and see Osama still alive in a dark cave. Whoopee, as if that would narrow it down, considering how many caves there are in the world...

Am I even allowed to "zoom out" and view my general surroundings?

 

[DracoSuave]

Wow. If this were any other rpg I've played in, a thirty second scry for just some jink and a -very minor- loss of game time would be awesome and coveted by all and sundry.

But because it's D&D, people cry 'It's not good enough! BAAAAAWWWWWWW!'

Which part of D&D -exactly- makes this spell suboptimal compared to other rpg systems? Hps? Nope. Healing surges? Nope. Skills? Nope. Powers? Nope. Nothing does. So therefore, it can't be suboptimal compared to systems where it is awesome-o-robot. Therefore, it must therefore also be awesome-o-robot.

Sorry 4e doesn't hand you everything on a silver platter wizard spell list anymore and you need to actually think about how you use these rituals.

This is not something I'm crying over.

 

[theNater]

Which basically means to me its only useful if I go out of my way to make it useful. After a bunch of nothing else works conditions are met, and in a very specific storyline of needing to see someone face, who performed a important enough crime that I'm willing to drop 24,000GP to solve it, and the person is too dumb to get some kind of scrying protection after killing the king, I can get something useful.

Or in other words, never.

I have created a scenario, however unlikely, in which a short scry is uniquely capable of providing helpful information.

One of my first questions in this thread, which has yet to be answered, is what an hour-long scry can uniquely provide. The only suggestion I've seen so far for that is a situation in which the PCs know who the enemy is and when they will be making plans. In such a situation, inserting a spy or acquiring an informant is an alternative way to get detailed information on those plans, and the Consult Oracle ritual is able to provide general information on them.

Can someone, anyone, provide me with a scenario in which an hour-long scry is uniquely informative?

 

[MarkB]

I have created a scenario, however unlikely, in which a short scry is uniquely capable of providing helpful information.

One of my first questions in this thread, which has yet to be answered, is what an hour-long scry can uniquely provide. The only suggestion I've seen so far for that is a situation in which the PCs know who the enemy is and when they will be making plans. In such a situation, inserting a spy or acquiring an informant is an alternative way to get detailed information on those plans, and the Consult Oracle ritual is able to provide general information on them.

If the enemy is a different race, you'll have trouble finding a spy to insert, and even if you succeed, it'll take weeks for them to work their way into the enemy's confidences, whereas casting a scrying spell takes an hour. And if you have no lines of communication to the enemy camp, you can't acquire an informant, and even if you could it'd be difficult to assess their reliability. Consult Oracle will gain you sketchy, possibly ambiguous information, and relies largely on you knowing which questions to ask.

Scrying, uniquely, lets you see your target first-hand, giving you a clear, unambiguous view of who they are, what they're like, and what they're doing.