Are shifters too powerful?

[KarinsDad]

Its actually better for the druid if they don't stack; he remains a valid target of the animal growth, so the spell still goes off. But if you're playing it that multiple enlargements don't work (thats the rules) and that wildshape is indeed a size altering effect (thats a bit questionable, but for the sake of argument we'll go along), then the animal growth and wildshape overlap. That is, they're both there, but they don't stack.

Now lets have a look at what spells do when they overlap. If you have a morale bonus to attacks already, and someone casts heroism on you, what happens ? The morale bonuses to attack don't stack, so you pick the better of the two. But regardless of which is better, heroism still grants you the bonus to ability checks and saves.

In the same way, animal growth's size alteration may be redundant and not do anything, but the DR 10/magic, the natural armour boost and the stat modifications would still take effect. Without making you too big to fit in a dungeon. Sign me up !

Maybe, maybe not.

"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."

This can easily be read that if you do not grow, you do not get the benefits. The Animal Growth spell is still up, but it does nothing. In other words, one Transformation spell prevents the other Transformation spell from taking effect. It is not that some of the magical effects do not stack, it is that all of the magical effects do not stack.


According to your philosophy, a Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person would result in a character of the same size and ability changes as per Righteous Might, but with a -2 to Dex due to Enlarge Person.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In the same way, animal growth's size alteration may be redundant and not do anything, but the DR 10/magic, the saves boost and the stat modifications would still take effect. Without making you too big to fit in a dungeon. Sign me up !

Well, I'd think you couldn't get the size bonus to abilities if your size doesn't increase further. But a spell that grants DR 10/magic, +4 resistance on saves, and increase of natural armor by 2 (not enhancement bonus) would by itself be useful. What level?

 

[IcyCool]

And, if you break the rules by allowing WildShaping that increases a Druid's size category to stack with Animal Growth that explicitly states that it does not allow that, then of course, your Druid will be able to dish out even more damage.

Last I heard, this was still up for debate. Has that been cleared up?

According to your philosophy, a Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person would result in a character of the same size and ability changes as per Righteous Might, but with a -2 to Dex due to Enlarge Person.

I'm pretty certain this is how it would work. Can anyone cite rules to confirm or deny this?

 

[KarinsDad]

Last I heard, this was still up for debate. Has that been cleared up?

Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:

If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.

Is Wild Shape a magical effect? Yes.

If Animal Growth is used to increase the size a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Polar Bear increase? Yes.

Is Animal Growth a magical effect? Yes.

The fact that some people want Wild Shape and Polymorph Transmutations to not be considered size altering ones appears to be irrelevant to the rules themselves and a semantical game. If the game explicitly called out a "size changing" spell game mechanic (e.g. like Transmutation [Size Altering] [Type Altering]) and said "Magical Size Altering effects that increase size do not stack" and if Alter Self and Polymorph and Wild Shape did not have the [Size Altering] qualifier, then their argument would have merit.

But as is, the claim is that the spells do not explicitly state that they change the size (and instead change the form which can have a different size), hence, it does not count is fairly weak in a rules forum. It's not as if the size is not changing.

I'm pretty certain this is how it would work. Can anyone cite rules to confirm or deny this?

No. The rules are unclear on it.

"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."

This is the closest rule we have and it is unclear.


However, it is a fairly illogical if having Righteous Might up by itself gives one set of abilities, then casting Enlarge Person would make those abilities worse.

For example:

PC Cleric: "Ha ha evil doer. I have cast Righteous Might on myself and will now crush your followers."
NPC Wizard: "Not so fast holy spawn. <Enlarge Person>. Ha ha. You are now easier to hit and easier to damage with evocation spells."
PC Cleric: "Darn."


It makes more sense and is much much easier to adjudicate if no aspect of a transmutation will work if any portion of it is prevented from working. In other words, in order to successfuly transmute, you must fully transmute. The later spell becomes completely "irrelevant".

The fact that you do not Enlarge at all implies that you do not get a -2 size penalty to Dex for enlarging (at all).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:

If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.

Alternatively, someone might reasonably ask, "What halfling?"

 

[KarinsDad]

Alternatively, someone might reasonably ask, "What halfling?"

Reasonably?

Just because you change form does not mean you change who you are, nor does it mean that a magical effect did not change your size category (along with changing your form).

It's called a Transmutation spell for a reason.

 

[Diirk]

Reasonably?

Just because you change form does not mean you change who you are, nor does it mean that a magical effect did not change your size category (along with changing your form).

Actually, it does change who you are. Thats why your type and subtype change, not just your body. It should also be pointed out that this 'multiple magic effects that change your size category' that you are found of spouting is not general rule, but a tag line at the bottom of each size modifying spell in the SRD/core books. Which is missing from polymorph. One could infer from that, that polymorph ISN'T a size altering spell.

And the one spell making another irrelevant clearly doesn't apply either. Irrelevant would be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names. Or is it your position that aid makes the effects from death knell irrelevant ? As Brother Maclaren said, even ignoring the stat adjustments, the DR and save bonuses have nothing to do with the size increase.

 

[IcyCool]

Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:

If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.

It's not nearly so straightforward. One could easily argue that the size category of the Halfling did not increase. You do not have a large Halfling. You have a large Polar Bear.

I'm just pointing out that it's not cut and dried.

No. The rules are unclear on it.

"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."

This is the closest rule we have and it is unclear.


However, it is a fairly illogical if having Righteous Might up by itself gives one set of abilities, then casting Enlarge Person would make those abilities worse.

For example:

PC Cleric: "Ha ha evil doer. I have cast Righteous Might on myself and will now crush your followers."
NPC Wizard: "Not so fast holy spawn. <Enlarge Person>. Ha ha. You are now easier to hit and easier to damage with evocation spells."
PC Cleric: "Darn."

PC Cleric: "Whew, I thought you were going to do something nasty." *Proceeds to beat the NPC Wizard to a pulp.*

It seems logical to me that the size increase doesn't stack (and thus, you don't aquire the size bonuses), but the other effects of the spell should continue to function.

*shrugs* YMMV

 

[KarinsDad]

It's not nearly so straightforward. One could easily argue that the size category of the Halfling did not increase. You do not have a large Halfling. You have a large Polar Bear.

I'm just pointing out that it's not cut and dried.

Actually, it is totally cut and dried.

You do have a large Polar Bear. But, it is the same Halfling character who now has reach. He does not have the form of a Halfling, but he is still the same character. As such, there is no way you can argue that he did not gain size categories.

PC Cleric: "Whew, I thought you were going to do something nasty." *Proceeds to beat the NPC Wizard to a pulp.*

It seems logical to me that the size increase doesn't stack (and thus, you don't aquire the size bonuses), but the other effects of the spell should continue to function.

Hmmm. A tough one to be sure (rules-wise).

If you cast Enlarge Person on the Halfling and he then Wild Shapes to the Polar Bear, what happens?

Does Enlarge Person on the Halfling stop functioning because he is no longer a person? Probably not since the rule on "characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform" only applies when the spell is cast.

Or, is he unable to Wild Shape to a Polar Bear because it is Large and the Halfling is currently only Medium?

Or with your "the other effects of the spell should continue to function" idea, does he become a Medium Sized Polar Bear? In other words, he gains the form, but not the size.


In this case, how do you rule that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." unless you just flat out prevent the second Transmutation from working at all? The number of different ways to interpret this starts creeping up otherwise.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, it does change who you are. Thats why your type and subtype change, not just your body.

Type and subtype are merely game mechanic rules to allow DMs to know how to adjudicate other effects.

For example, if you are Lawful Evil and Shapechange into a Titan, your alignment does not become Chaotic just because your new subtype is Chaotic. You can (and should) still act lawfully.

Protection From Law and Protection From Chaos will both now be affective against you because you are still Lawful with a Chaotic subtype, but you are still you. Just a different body.

Or are you claiming that Shapechange which is based on Polymorph which is based on Alter Self which states that you retain your own mind is no longer valid?


It is still the same character. A character TRANSMUTED by magic and hence whose size increased by magic.

If Diirk is playiing a PC and that PC is polymorphed, it does not become an NPC under the DMs control.

It is the same PC and Diirk still plays him. Just a PC with different abilities.

If that Transformed PC walks into an Antimagic Field, he changes back.


Are you claiming that a Reincarnated PC is no longer the same PC?

Are you claiming that a 20th level Monk is no longer the same PC?

It should also be pointed out that this 'multiple magic effects that change your size category' that you are found of spouting is not general rule, but a tag line at the bottom of each size modifying spell in the SRD/core books. Which is missing from polymorph. One could infer from that, that polymorph ISN'T a size altering spell.

Except that your size changes.

That's like saying that when you acquire a smaller size when polymorphed, you do not have to follow the carrying capacity rules for Small creatures because those rules are not in the Polymorph spell either.


And, it is a general rule because it directly talks about magical effects outside of the spell itself that it is listed in. Unlike Haste stating that it counters Slow, or Daylight stating that it dispels or counters lower level Darkness spells, this rule does not explicity state which other spells it affects. It states which type of magical effects it affects (i.e. those "that increase size"). It is a general rule statement that applies to any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that increases size, not just spells that also state it.

If it meant only spells (and according to you, only spells with the same sentence in them), it would have stated spells and not "magical effects".

And the one spell making another irrelevant clearly doesn't apply either. Irrelevant would be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names. Or is it your position that aid makes the effects from death knell irrelevant ?

Irrelevant might be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names.

But, the example in the PHB page 172 TOTALLY disagrees with this interpretation, hence, your interpretation of the "irrelevant" sentence is NOT the only one according to RAW.

"If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape."

The second transmutation here trumps the first one and the spells have totally differing effects.

As Brother Maclaren said, even ignoring the stat adjustments, the DR and save bonuses have nothing to do with the size increase.

I do not disagree with this IF the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevent" rule does not trump the "Different Bonus Names" rule in this case.

The problem we have is that we do not know which rule trumps the other.

I am not saying what the answer is for Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person, I'm saying that the rules are unclear on it.