D&D 5E Are Sorcerers' and Warlocks' Spell Slots Backwards???

Agreed.

And IIRC, their archetypes map quite well when you swap their classes. Just have the few archetypes' features that requires SP to require a spell slot instead and switch their spells list.

Warlock having Metamagic as ''magic cheats'' is also quite on theme.

Change the ''pact boon'' for Sorcerous Boons, as a memento/proof of your bloodline:
  • Ensorcelled Blade (previously Pact of the Blade)
  • Blood-Bond (aka Pact of the Chain)
  • Ancestral Tome (Pact of the Tome)
  • Bloodline's Memento (Pact of the Talisman)
 

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Because a Warlock's power is "on loan" from the Patron. They only get the little bit they are allowed by their Patron as a reminder of who holds the leash most of the time. Also the Warlock's major big deal is their SLAs via Eldritch Invocations.
But the first invalidates the second. The entity wants to keep the warlock on a "leesh" by offering only short rest magic....then gives you at-will power? :unsure:

Personally I do agree that the Warlock mechanics do fit the sorceror to me more, but at the end of the day its an easy flavor switch. If a player wants to play an "innate magical being" with all of the sorceror flavor but with a warlock chassis, than the class supports that very very well.

If I had my druthers, than the warlock class wouldn't have spells at all, but be completely about invocations. That said, I respect that at-will abilities are very very powerful in dnd, and WOTC is rightfully wary to add them too much to any class as they are hard to balance. I think that's why so many of the warlock invocations are just not very good....because they are deathly afraid to make them too good and just release an at-will torrent of power.

Of course if I had my full drethers, sorceror's casting stat would be based on con....REAL innate power :)
 

So, here's the issue: shouldn't sorcerers get spells slot like warlocks, recovering them on a short or long rest, when their bodies can "recharge"?
And if not, what is the reason why Warlocks get their slots on a short rest?
In the playtest version of the warlock, they had to perform a special ritual during a short or long rest to recover their equivalent of spell slots (more on that later).
If you think Warlocks get their slots on a short rest because they in touch with the patron, then why can't Clerics get slots during a short rest by praying to their god?
Tradition, mostly. Warlocks are newer, so they got more leeway in terms of being able to break from the traditional Vancian casting formula. I think if you made a new game from scratch to mechanically represent the concepts presented in modern D&D, I do think clerics and warlocks would use the same mechanical framework.
In quick reply to the responses, I think Warlocks would be more interesting with just Eldritch Invocations and no spells.
I think you would have liked the playtest warlock. In that iteration, the warlock did have spells, but no spell slots, and all the spells on their spell list were rituals, so unless they gained levels in another spellcasting class, rituals were the only way they could cast spells. What they had in place of spell slots was Minor Invocations, Lesser Invocations, and a resource called Patron’s Favors. The warlock could use Minor Invocations at-will (Eldritch Blast was a Minor Invocation) and they could spend a Patron’s Favor to use a Lesser Invocation. The Warlock got two Patron’s Favors, which they regained by performing a special ritual during a short or long rest to contact their patron. Presumably, they would have gotten Greater Invocations at some point, but since the warlock in the playtest only went to 5th level, we never got to see what that would have looked like.

It’s easy to see how this evolved into the warlock we have now. Internal playtesters probably found it confusing that the warlock had spells but no spell slots, and found the distinction between Invocations and spells arbitrary. So, Patron’s Favors became the warlock’s special spell slots that work differently than everyone else’s spell slots, Minor Invocations became cantrips, Lesser Invocations became spells, and what would have been Greater Invocations became Mystic Arcana, and/or the Invocations that let you spend a warlock spell slot to cast a specified spell once per day. The ritual casting focus got turned into the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, and more Pact Boons got invented.
And move the short rest recovery with few slots to Sorcerers.
Again, I think the playtest sorcerer shows us a better path. Instead of normal spell slots and the ability to spend sorcery points to make more spell slots, the playtest sorcerer had no spell slots, and could only cast spells by spending sorcery points (though they were called Willpower at the time). And on top of that, they could spend points to modify their spells via Metamagic, and the draconic bloodline subclass became more dragon-like the lower their willpower pool was (I could imagine this translating to an increased chance of wild magic surges for the wild magic sorcerer with lower willpower as well, but we never got any other subclasses in the playtest).

Of all the iterations of the Sorcerer I’ve seen, this one best captured the feeling of someone born with magic, in my opinion. Instead of preparing spells from a book and casting them with spell slots like a wizard or performing rituals and praying to an otherworldly entity for favors like a Warlock (and in my opinion like a Cleric should also do), they just had spells and could exert their will to cast them, or to modify them, and their magic would start getting weird if they spent too much of it (though a clever Sorcerer could turn that to their advantage as well).

Under that framework, I would imagine Sorcerers recovering some Willpower/Sorcery Points on a short rest, but not all, and recovering all, or at least more, on a long rest.
 

Because a Warlock's power is "on loan" from the Patron. They only get the little bit they are allowed by their Patron as a reminder of who holds the leash most of the time.
Not every Warlock, they aren't Clerics. The fluff (and Mike Mearls) supports their powers and spells being learned or permanently bestowed. Down to the DM really.
 

Not every Warlock, they aren't Clerics. The fluff (and Mike Mearls) supports their powers and spells being learned or permanently bestowed. Down to the DM really.
My preferred interpretation of the warlock/patron power dynamic is that it works like, well, patronage. A patron pays an artist or artisan, generally because they like their work and want to see them do more of it. There are sometimes conditions of patronage, e.g. “I’ll pay you to make a statue of me” and other times it’s simply to support the artist in doing whatever they want to do. It’s not a service or a contractual arrangement, it’s an informal arrangement where one party provides the other with resources, on the assumption that the receiving party will use those resources to do something the providing party will enjoy.

Accordingly, I like my patrons to provide their warlocks with power, often without condition, just to see what they’ll do with it. Sometimes they might offer suggestions, and occasionally they might place conditions, but it’s generally an informal thing. The patron expects that if they give the warlock power, the warlock will use it to do something the patron likes. If that expectation is consistently not met, the patron may stop providing patronage, but it’s not a contractual relationship, as many DMs portray it.

Of course, this model of patronage where there is a single patron with a great deal of resources is a little archaic. Modern patronage tends to take the form of crowdfunding. Lots of people with few resources, all contributing a little bit to finance something they all want. I’d love to see a warlock that functioned with a similar model of patronage. Perhaps a custom Patron. Call it “The Legion.”
 

Of course, this model of patronage where there is a single patron with a great deal of resources is a little archaic. Modern patronage tends to take the form of crowdfunding. Lots of people with few resources, all contributing a little bit to finance something they all want. I’d love to see a warlock that functioned with a similar model of patronage. Perhaps a custom Patron. Call it “The Legion.”
"The Patreon" :LOL:.
 

I've been strongly tempted to just blend the Sorcerer and Warlock into 1 class. Patron isn't supported by many mechanics (unlike 4E, where you got a boon for killing cursed targets), and there's some thematic overlap between bloodlines and patrons (I could easily imagine a fiendish bloodline, or a draconic patron). I also don't like the Sorcerer design one bit, I think metamagic could have been done with feats and the existing upcasting mechanic, so blending the Sorcerer and Warlock and primarily using the Warlock chassis for the resulting class would work for me.

Then, whether your power comes from bloodline, a curse, an accident of magic, or a magical pact, would be entirely up to your character story.
 


To me there has never been a "proper" sorcerer. A sorcerer should have unlimited castings, controlled by exhaustion or something similar. In other words, every casting should cost you some amount of physical energy - hit points, levels of exhaustion, movement speed, Constitution points, or something similar. You should be able to cast until you just don't have any more energy left to cast, and that should have a physical representation like unconsciousness if you truly run out of energy.

In that sense, it's not warlock any more than it's the current sorcerer.
 

I think the original intention of calling the slots that Warlocks use to cast their Pact Magic spells "spell slots" was simplicity - they more or less functioned like spell slots and there was no need to complicate the game by introducing a different term. Unfortunately, it's led to a number of unsatisfactory outcomes (in my view) such as multiclass sorcerer/warlocks using Pact Magic slots to regain sorcery points after a short rest and multiclass paladin/warlocks using Pact Magic slots for Divine Smite. In hindsight, I think it would have been better if a different term had been used.

I have to admit I like the mechanism, though. I think that recovering the ability to cast a small number of tightly curated spells on a short rest helps to emphasize a spellcaster's theme. I'm toying with the idea of gestalting warlocks with other spellcasting classes to emulate 4e-style characters with abilities that are recovered on both short and long rests. Clerics could have "domain slots" recovered on a short rest that they can use to cast domain spells. Wizards with an arcane tradition based on one of the eight schools of magic could have "school slots" recovered on a short rest that they can use to cast spells of up to 5th level from their specialty school, and so on.
 

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