"Are the Authors of the Dungeon & Dragons Hardcover Adventures Blind to the Plight of DMs?"

[AaronOfBarbaria]

But, yeah, TotYP has a different format than the others, no question.

So does Storm King's Thunder, with that flow chart of the adventure that carries the story forward while deliberately skipping some chapters (unless the group playing wants to go around and do all the branches - but that's no different than a group playing through Tales of the Yawning Portal as a campaign).

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm prepping to DM Tomb of Annihilation. Our first game is this Sunday. It's a fantastic adventure, but preparing has been challenging...

{SPOILERS}

There is *a lot* of hidden story for the DM to tease out, which could have been elaborated in the intro (and lightened the DM's burden). For example, the Red Wizards in Omu are searching for puzzle cubes led by a sinister mage who possessed her own granddaughter. The adventure suggests negotiating with these Red Wizards, yet roleplaying guidelines (i.e. what will they ask for in a negotiated truce? will they keep their word? will they team up with the PCs to enter the tomb together?) are practically non-existent. Only by reading several other sections of the book do I get a clear picture of how the Red Wizards operate.

To be fair, the adventure lacks an index and Chapter 2 (with many sites in Chult) gets all of three lines in the table of contents, so I knew I was getting a book that didn't have ease of DMing as a selling point.

Also, there are a fair number of dangling threads that go nowhere. This is both a blessing and a curse. Minotaurs used to dwell in Omu as protectors of the royal family! Wow, that's an interesting detail. Aren't minotaurs usually evil? How'd that come to be? No real answer is given, but you do run across minotaur skeletons. And the King of Feathers, a magical teleporting, insect-breathing t-rex? Surely there's a story behind this thing? Nope, none that I've been able to find on my first read-through.

While there are definitely some story elements that connect to one another, finding them can be a bit of a chore. Mostly, I've found my prep has focused on making more connections that evoke a stronger sense of meaning in the narrative & do a better job of foreshadowing. For example, there is an underlying theme of forbidden magic that lies outside normal spellcasting – it's never explicitly stated like in the AD&D Jungles of Chult, but it can be felt with Ubtao's abandoning his barae (and how the only "barae" we see is Ras Nsi), Nanny Pu'pu (creating sentient zombies by invoking Myrkul), Asharra (the Dance of the Seven Winds, which invokes the Wind Dukes of Aaqa), Zagmira (the Red Wizard in Omu possessed her own grand-daughter), even the Nine Trickster Gods (which can inhabit the PCs). There are probably more examples I'm overlooking. Here's what I'm doing, and wish the writers had included something to this effect: Chult has a history of matumbe (forbidden magic) which is considered secret/sacred knowledge; during the days of Omuan royalty, such magic was controlled, but with the rise of the merchant princes matumbe is being unleashed upon Chult again.

While ToA is hard to prepare if you're looking for a "run out of the box" game, it has so far been an excellent adventure creation toolkit for me.

 

[hawkeyefan]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] I agree that ToA has a ton of material. There are dozens of NPCs with motivations and agendas. It’s too much for most DMs, I think, even experienced ones. New DMs would have a hard time with all of it.

I’ve ditched a fair amount of what’s in the book and focused on the NPCs and stories that I think my players will most enjoy. I’ve also added some elements from our ongoing campaign.

I would expect most DMs will do something similar...just not worry about a lot of the ancillary material in the book.

 

[robus]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] I agree that ToA has a ton of material. There are dozens of NPCs with motivations and agendas. It’s too much for most DMs, I think, even experienced ones. New DMs would have a hard time with all of it.

I’ve ditched a fair amount of what’s in the book and focused on the NPCs and stories that I think my players will most enjoy. I’ve also added some elements from our ongoing campaign.

I would expect most DMs will do something similar...just not worry about a lot of the ancillary material in the book.

Hmm - perhaps there’s niche in DMs Guild for “The New DMs Guide to XXX” where a simpler (more linear/optimal path) through an adventure is presented?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Hmm - perhaps there’s niche in DMs Guild for “The New DMs Guide to XXX” where a simpler (more linear/optimal path) through an adventure is presented?

I honestly think that is a good idea, like something that I would buy.

I can see a presentation/formating like in the 4e Encounters module where each adventure is presented as a linear list of encounter scenes (be it combat, exploration challenge or social challenge).

 

[Old One Eye]

In other words, the "norm" was that the DM was responsible for the setting, story hooks, etc. Even if using a published setting and published adventures, the idea was that the DM was running a campaign, that somethow tied them all together.

The APs seem to be designed with this approach somewhat in mind. Some more than others. But there really hasn't been much in the rules to support this. Yes, the DMG has a lot of things to help create a campaign world, but the publication of APs implies that it's not really needed. Instead, they've seemed to substitute "sandbox" for campaign. The idea that having a lot of space for people to explore and no explicit single linear path gives this illusion.

And really, that's the crux of the problem. Without an actual campaign to support the adventures, when the PCs go off track, there aren't other options for them. Most of the APs give the illusion of a campaign by existing in the same setting. And the other supplements have continued to be centered on that setting. But the APs stand alone. They function more like a video game, where there are defined limits to where you can go, and there are other interesting things, and occasionally beneficial things, for side adventures, but there is one plot.

In a campaign, there is no "one plot." If the PCs decide not to follow this plot, they find another one. You can make them as sandboxy as you'd like, ultimately there is still the one plot to return to, or you select a different AP.

The next time I get off my duff and run a normal campaign instead of the weird co-DM homebrew I've got going (different story), I will probably base it in the western Realms. Strip the time sensitive elements from the APs and just use them as the different things going on in the world. Whatever the PCs stumble across and choose to interact with will be the campaign. The APs give me tons of premade dungeons, NPCs, story hooks, and all.

Doesn't the critical mass of using all the APs in tandem as "the Realms" basically meet your "norm" of an old school campaign?

 

[TheSword]

And really, that's the crux of the problem. Without an actual campaign to support the adventures, when the PCs go off track, there aren't other options for them. Most of the APs give the illusion of a campaign by existing in the same setting. And the other supplements have continued to be centered on that setting. But the APs stand alone. They function more like a video game, where there are defined limits to where you can go, and there are other interesting things, and occasionally beneficial things, for side adventures, but there is one plot.

...

When the play is campaign based, then a single character generally isn't essential to the continuation of the game. When one adventure is completed, there are others to explore. When one character dies, others (whether already created or not) are there to write the next part of the story. Some characters have big stories, some little. Exploration itself is often the adventure, and play focuses more on the setting and the character's place in it, rather than the characters specifically and, as has become more the norm, the advancement of those characters.

...

These attitudes make it difficult for a DM to handle a sandbox wrapped around an AP. Combined with the presentation that implies that an AP is a self-contained "campaign" makes this worse. In theory at least. As I said, I've mostly heard good things about the APs, because it's been the more casual players that want to be part of a bigger story. So they are OK with the idea that they need to follow that plot. In which case the biggest problem is the DM having to figure out how to help them do that if they stray too far.

I don’t think you’re being fair to the published Campaign Books. All a campaign really is, are a series of linked adventures. Connected by theme, location or overarching plot. Most campaigns that I have seen run around a set home base or a set rising threat.

Princes of the apocalypse is a set of wildly disparate locations that link together by having a theme to the enemies but they are all very different, as are the towns and villages in the Sumber Hills. It isn’t one story there are lots of enemies and the PCs pierce layers to reach the bigger villains further on in the campaign.

Out of the Abyss is a series of individual encounters/adventures set in the underdark and the theme that demon lords walk amongst us. The locations are all very different and are really a set of separate adventures.

Similarly curse of strahd could easily be viewed as 14 separate adventures linked by Strahd himself and the setting.

In all three, players can interact with the story however they like, the DM can chose which hooks to feed to the players and which section can fill which gap, cut things out, alter things etc. I really don’t see how it is any different to a DM stringing 3 adventures out of dungeon magazine together in a home brew setting.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

The next time I get off my duff and run a normal campaign instead of the weird co-DM homebrew I've got going (different story), I will probably base it in the western Realms. Strip the time sensitive elements from the APs and just use them as the different things going on in the world. Whatever the PCs stumble across and choose to interact with will be the campaign. The APs give me tons of premade dungeons, NPCs, story hooks, and all.

Doesn't the critical mass of using all the APs in tandem as "the Realms" basically meet your "norm" of an old school campaign?

A campaign doesn't have to be homemade. Mine has been set in the Realms since '87 and has incorporated almost all of the published materials including novels. And it's not that the APs can't be used as part of a campaign. They just aren't designed that way inherently.

I guess if I were to define it a bit differently, a sandbox is open exploration of the setting, and a campaign is open exploration of the story? That is, instead of having a set story, the story is really more that of the setting and the characters, rather than a predetermined plot with an end.

My point though, is more along the lines that without something "beyond the book" it is difficult for a DM to handle when the PCs decide they don't want to follow the published story. The part that is missing beyond the book isn't necessarily the setting itself. They have SCAG, and most of the APs are mini setting guides as well. There isn't really a lack of geography and such, but of the plot hooks that aren't related specifically toward pulling the PCs into the AP's plot.

You can do this with a single AP, but it doesn't do it on its own. It needs the DM's input (whether planned or improvised) to allow something other than the published plot.

 

[Monayuris]

I'd much prefer a bumper book of encounters & npcs, grouped by theme and level.

Colour coded, clearly indexed, card sized entries, with permission to print for convenience.

Then I can mix and match as needed - from a one shot to a campaign.

Cobbling together an adventure is relatively easy. Or at least, its a skill that doesn't take much time or energy to become proficient at. Such a bumper book of encounters & npcs could save me time, provide inspiration and support.

Such a resource, to my mind, would be useful to a DM as a DM tool - a creative resource for a creative practice - rather than these glossy, precrafted adventures.

I'd recommend checking these out.

https://limitless-adventures.com/

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

I'd recommend checking these out.

https://limitless-adventures.com/

Awesome! Thank you.