Are the core (PHB) feats enough?

[Scion]

way too limited. There are so many character concepts that would be interesting that you just cant do with what is given in the core books.

being able to customize a character to taste is very important, having to pick from a list of feats that mean nothing and do nothing for your character is just a horrible experience.

 

[Wombat]

In my gaming group we have quite the stack of books. Green Ronin, Mongoose, Human Head, Malhavoc, Atlas, etc., etc.

When it comes to PrCs, my players want to have all sorts of options, but rarely take anything.

When it comes to feats, my players want even MORE options, but tend to stick to the PHB and then one or two other "favourite" books (although the "favourites" alter from player to player).

Yes, the feats in the PHB are good enough to run the game, as are the spells, the monsters in the MM, etc. OTOH, the mantra of "CHOICE" hits rpgs. MORE may not equal BETTER, but many people do conflate the two, just like confusing raw knowledge with intelligence

 

[ForceUser]

Are the core feats too limited?

Quasqueton

Hell no.

 

[ConspiracyAngel]

NO. I don't think so, and from the look of things not many others do either.

 

[Crothian]

My players perfer to get feats outside the PHB. We have gotten a lot of use out of AEG's Feats.

 

[Gort]

I think they are too limited for certain character race/class combinations. Fighters, particularly those who don't have scores of above 13 in one or more of the three fighter feat prereqs, (str, int, dex) will find themselves taking less and less useful feats, cheapening a class whose only distinctive class features to set it apart from rangers, paladins, and barbarians are its large number of feats.

Therefore, I welcome the Complete Warrior book, as its feats are well balanced and give useful abilities to the fighter for him to spend feats on, as well as fixing things like toughness.

So, my answer is, "yes, but only for the fighter, and the addition of one book solves this".

 

[Tessarael]

Actually, I'm more inclined to say that there are too many feats in the 3.5E PHB:

1. All the skill bonus feats should be combined, and preferably made generic. (4 skill points, distribute how you like) Combat Casting and Endurance should be handled in this manner (get rid of Endurance per se, it's a weak feat).

2. There are too many item creation feats. In AD&D, any Wizard with Enchant an Item could make magic items. Reduce the number of item creation feats and simplify the system. I'd go for something like Monte Cook's Arcane Unearthed system: Craft Single-Use Item (Scroll, Potion, some Wondrous items), Craft Charged Item (Staff, Wand), Craft Constant Item (power in constant effect or activated (no charges), and weapons and armor). This frees up some feats for enchanters to be more than just flavorless enchanters.

3. Get rid of Combat Expertise. Make this a standard rule that anyone in combat can use.

4. Get rid of Mobility, or get rid of Tumble affecting combat. They overlap - should only have one of them.

5. Combine Cleave and Great Cleave. Cleave is good vs. mooks, but Great Cleave is useful even less often.

6. Get rid of Rapid Shot and Manyshot. They break standard mechanics for combat and can be too good in some circumstances (especially with Improved Rapid Shot).

7. Replace Power Attack by a feat that gives say +2 damage with two-handed weapons. Power Attack has complicated mechanics, and is often used at the wrong time by people who aren't familiar with the math behind it. i.e. Simplify.

8. Get rid of Improved Shield Bash. See more comments on Two-Weapon Fighting below.

9. Combine Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus to give a flat +2 save DC for a magic school.

10. Get rid of Track. Allow anyone with Survival to track all DCs. Increase DC on tracking if you like, and give Rangers a bonus (e.g. +4 by 20th level).

11. Make Two-Weapon Fighting work like using Two-Handed weapons. For details see:
http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~knight/campaign/3edition/twoweapon.html
I would get rid of Greater Two Weapon Parry, but allow a Defender secondary weapon to add to AC. (Improved Shield Bash is now redundant - you use the shield as a shield, or as a secondary weapon to add to damage, but not both.)

12. Get rid of Weapon Finesse. Allow everyone to have Weapon Finesse. If your DEX bonus is higher than your STR bonus, it applies to attacks with light weapons, Rapier, spiked chain, and whip.

13. Some of the metamagic feats are quite weak. Allow everyone to use Heighten Spell by default (no feat needed) - i.e. use a higher level slot, and the spell DC increases. Combine Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell and Widen Spell into one feat (Modify Spell): rules stay the same, just makes the feat more useful, e.g. +2 levels for an extended, enlarged spell.

14. Get rid of Improved Grapple. Grappling provokes an attack of opportunity, and damage from that attack of opportunity penalizes (but does not prevent) your grapple attempt. Similarly, I'd probably get rid of Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder.

Now the other major change I would make, would be to make some class features generic feats. This could be done with a number of the class features. Classes then get bonus feats instead of these class features, so that they have more choice in feats.

1. As Mone Cook did in Arcana Unearthed, I'd make Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge feats.

2. Increased Move +10' enchancement bonus in light or no armour and not encumbered as a feat, and this replaces the Run feat - i.e. let anyone add their DEX bonus to dodging when running. (I wouldn't give Monks too many bonus feats to replace this.)

Major changes, but I think it would simplify the feat system. Moreover, I don't want a whole lot of feats from other sources - many are too weak or too powerful. I would probably replace Toughness with Improved Toughness from Combat and Tactics (but only allow you to take Improved Toughness once). I would allow the Energy Substitution feat, but not with Sonic Energy.

This simplifies the number of choices characters need to make, and leaves the most useful feats in place. The weaker feats have mostly been removed. Characters generally have too few feats and too many feats that they want to take, so fewer feats reduces this issue slightly.

Just my (complicated) thoughts ...

 

[Umbran]

I think Ranger REG has a good point. The core rulebooks should be designed to be playable, but shouldn't be expected to give everybody everything they could ever wish for. Especially with the OGL and the d20 licenses out there.

The feats in the core are good for a set of core rules, sufficient for basic, generic play. Expansion beyond that is nice, but should be left for expansions and suplements, not in the core.

 

[Seonaid]

1. All the skill bonus feats should be combined, and preferably made generic. (4 skill points, distribute how you like) Combat Casting and Endurance should be handled in this manner (get rid of Endurance per se, it's a weak feat).

I agree completely. I've often wondered why it wasn't like this, but always shrugged and figured it was my lack of understanding of mechanics that made me confused.

2. There are too many item creation feats. In AD&D, any Wizard with Enchant an Item could make magic items. Reduce the number of item creation feats and simplify the system. I'd go for something like Monte Cook's Arcane Unearthed system: Craft Single-Use Item (Scroll, Potion, some Wondrous items), Craft Charged Item (Staff, Wand), Craft Constant Item (power in constant effect or activated (no charges), and weapons and armor).

I really like this. It makes more sense, and is more versatile. I don't know how it would affect balance, though, if it would at all.

3. Get rid of Combat Expertise. Make this a standard rule that anyone in combat can use.

Yes, the "normal" version of it should be the "benefit" of the feat. It makes sense.

4. Get rid of Mobility, or get rid of Tumble affecting combat.

I never really liked the idea of Tumble in combat. I've seen too many PC's roll their way out of getting hit to the point of it being munchkin-y (in my eyes). Changing that would help, and only having the +4 of Mobility would be more realistic and universal.

5. Combine Cleave and Great Cleave.

Almost always, when I've used Cleave, I could have used Great Cleave. I kind of think that Great Cleave is ridiculous, so I would recommend getting rid of Great Cleave, or limiting the number to x, determined by BAB or some other character-dependent variable.

6. Get rid of Rapid Shot and Manyshot.

I kind of like Manyshot, but I could live without Rapid Shot.

7. Replace Power Attack by a feat that gives say +2 damage with two-handed weapons. Power Attack has complicated mechanics, and is often used at the wrong time by people who aren't familiar with the math behind it.

The only reason why I ever take Power Attack is to get Cleave and Great Cleave. I never use it, precisely because of the mathematics. I understand what happens, but I don't ever care to take the time to apply it. I also am reluctant to take away from my attack to do more damage. That applies also to Combat Expertise, and I would *never* take away from AC to apply to attack or damage.

9. Combine Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus to give a flat +2 save DC for a magic school.

I agree in theory, but would that make a balance difference? If so, perhaps having a prerequisite would fix that.

10. Get rid of Track. Allow anyone with Survival to track all DCs. Increase DC on tracking if you like, and give Rangers a bonus (e.g. +4 by 20th level).

I agree completely.

11. Make Two-Weapon Fighting work like using Two-Handed weapons.

I like the way this looks, but I'd have to see it in action before I could form a solid opinion. It seems like it might just complicate things (though that could be just that I'm used to the 3.5 system).

12. Get rid of Weapon Finesse. Allow everyone to have Weapon Finesse. If your DEX bonus is higher than your STR bonus, it applies to attacks with light weapons, Rapier, spiked chain, and whip.

Agreed.

13. Some of the metamagic feats are quite weak.

Yes, this definitely could use some simplifying. It seems like the feats were separated to prevent confusion, but it would be easy to combine them.

14. Get rid of Improved Grapple. Grappling provokes an attack of opportunity, and damage from that attack of opportunity penalizes (but does not prevent) your grapple attempt. Similarly, I'd probably get rid of Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I have problems with the whole idea of an AoO, but I'm not sure if getting rid of these feats would make my problems less significant. I'm not entirely sure how to word my complaint, but AoO's seem off somehow. I'll think about it and maybe start another thread about it.

1. As Mone Cook did in Arcana Unearthed, I'd make Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge feats.

In game, I *really* like (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, but I'm not sure I like it in theory. I am tempted to say it should be gotten rid of, or at least Improved should be, but I don't know how to work it so the loss would be fair. I don't know, though, that I'd make them feats.

2. Increased Move +10' enchancement bonus in light or no armour and not encumbered as a feat, and this replaces the Run feat - i.e. let anyone add their DEX bonus to dodging when running. (I wouldn't give Monks too many bonus feats to replace this.)

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Perhaps I'm just too unfamiliar with the rules and/or monks, but could you explain this again?

 

[Eosin the Red]

I think the core books do just fine but that unusual character concepts can benifit an occassional feat other than those presented.

Something else to chew on....It apparently is enough if you want to design adventures but do not want to do feats and stuff like that. I am figuring out that it would be nice once in awhile to be able to pull a feat from elsewhere to use but that is generally too much hassel.