Are things like Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy too easy?

[Elf Witch]

*quote from Wikipedia*
The fifth Labour of Heracles was to clean the Augean stables. This assignment was intended to be both humiliating (rather than impressive, as had the previous labours) and impossible, since the livestock were divinely healthy (immortal) and therefore produced an enormous quantity of dung. These stables had not been cleaned in over 30 years, and over 1,000 cattle lived there.
*end quote from Wikipedia*

If you are going for a totally realistic campaign then DnD really isn't the system for it. At high levels the skills can let the heros do things nobody in the "real world" can do without the aid of magic weapons or spells.

Such as...

1. Convincing a naked emperor he is wearing new clothes.
2. Convincing a dark lord of the sith to turn against his evil ways and regain his humanity (instead of just getting rid of him by slicing off his head).
3. Climbing a beanstalk all the way into the clouds without it breaking or you falling to your death.
4. Noticing a pea under multiples mattresses by feel alone.
5. Planting a forest of trees across the continental United States.
6. Becoming best buddies with a supremely powerful beast because you did him a minor favor he could have done himself (like say removing a thorn from his paw)

DS

Hercules is part god. That means he is a magical creature.

I have been playing DnD since it came out and I have never felt that I needed a different game to play the style of game that I want.

I am not a slave to totally realism in any game. But there are a few dealbreakers for me. Anything that starts feeling like something out of a anime or a superheros comic is one of those things.

I can accept Superman can fly so I don't have an issue with people using magic to fly but if you crash to earth and you don't have feather fall then unlike Superman you are going to get hurt even possibly die.

There is a lot you can't do in the real world because magic does not exist.

The Darth Vader example could be done with a highly talented negotiator. Vader as we know from his past was conflicted about what he became. So Luke had an opening to work with.

The emperor needing new clothes might be accomplished in game if you had a great bluff and the emperor had a wisdom score in the minuses.

 

[Hussar]

The emperor needing new clothes might be accomplished in game if you had a great bluff and the emperor had a wisdom score in the minuses.

So, with a good enough social skill (bluff) I can convince a naked person that, despite the evidence of his own eyes, he is actually wearing clothing, but, I cannot be persuasive enough to convince Joe Grunt the Gate Guard that he should let me in the door.

I think there's a bit of a problem here.

 

[NewJeffCT]

So, with a good enough social skill (bluff) I can convince a naked person that, despite the evidence of his own eyes, he is actually wearing clothing, but, I cannot be persuasive enough to convince Joe Grunt the Gate Guard that he should let me in the door.

I think there's a bit of a problem here.

depends on the emperor. If he was new to the job and was a mere 1st level aristocrat, while having, as [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] said, a Wisdom penalty, it could be done if you're a high enough level in Bluff.

The problem with these social skills is that they usually do not offer any sort of defense/save against them. The 3E/3.5E version offered a flat DC and it didn't matter if you were chatting to Joe Grunt the Gate Guard or Elminster himself. At least in 4E, the challenge goes up as the level of the Diplomacized, Bluffed or Intimidated goes up. However, as I stated in my OP, even those are sometimes very easy as written.

 

[Elf Witch]

So, with a good enough social skill (bluff) I can convince a naked person that, despite the evidence of his own eyes, he is actually wearing clothing, but, I cannot be persuasive enough to convince Joe Grunt the Gate Guard that he should let me in the door.

I think there's a bit of a problem here.

I was just using an example from someone else post on how you could make the fairy tale work. Using bluff.

Not that it would in any game I ran. Because it would be stupid.

Which brings me back around to my whole it needs to make sense to the setting and the NPCs when it comes to social skills.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Of course you can intimidate your way past the guards into the castle. You just need a holocaust cloak, a wheelbarrow, a torch, and a giant.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Of course you can intimidate your way past the guards into the castle. You just need a holocaust cloak, a wheelbarrow, a torch, and a giant.

well, having a holocaust cloak is another story...

 

[Hussar]

I was just using an example from someone else post on how you could make the fairy tale work. Using bluff.

Not that it would in any game I ran. Because it would be stupid.

Which brings me back around to my whole it needs to make sense to the setting and the NPCs when it comes to social skills.

But that's my point. "Make sense to the setting" according to who? The DM? Why? Why is he/she the sole arbiter of what "makes sense"?

It's not like bluffing past the guard is so totally outside the context of genre. It's done many, many times in all sorts of genre stories.

Heck, even taking it from a fairly realistic standpoint. You're Joe Gateguard. You are told that no one is allowed into the castle. Five (ish) beings come up to you, each one carrying enough wealth on his/her/its body to buy your house a thousand times over and quite possibly capable of obliterating you with a thought and tell you that they are supposed to be let inside.

If I was the gate guard, I'd be opening the door then ducking around the corner to whack myself over the head with the flat of my own sword and claim that they ambushed me and forced their way in.

After all, is that really outside the realm of believability? Heck, "The wizard guy, he made me do it, I tried to stop myself, but he sucked out all my will and made me his meat puppet! boo hoo!" is a fairly believable excuse as to why the guard let them inside.

It's all in how you spin things.

 

[On Puget Sound]

(Some spying beforehand has revealed that the bad guy does, in fact, employ a necromancer, and the party has obtained his name. Before approaching gate: use makeup kit to make one character look badly diseased and questionably alive, then cover him with a cloak and hood).

Good evening, sirs. We're here to see Onyxel. What? Of course we're allowed in; the master is eager to examine my unfortunate friend Aldor. Aldor, say hello.

(Aldor flips back the hood, lurches forward a few steps, then pretends to vomit, spewing the mouthful of sour wine and crumbled hard boiled egg yolk he's been holding directly on the guard)

Oh no. Aldor! What a mess. Well don't worry, it's not a disease. It's a curse, and I'm sure you can't catch it. I think. Only humans can... oh, you're a human, aren't you? Still, I wouldn't worry. Unless you start sweating. Are you sweating? Hmmm. Itching or nervousness? Unsettled stomach? Oh, my. Tell you what, why don't you come with us? We'd better get you to Onyxel and let him have a look at you. He'll know what to do. Lead the way!

 

[Janx]

But Interrogation skill (in TN), is more about proper Interrogation of a suspect (questioning, bargaining, etc). Anything beyond that would really just be a modifier I suppose. So the way I handle NPCs who simply wouldn't give up information on their organization is they may accidentally give away some minor information on a success or they simply become more friendly and well disposed toward the PCs.

I think this answer touches on a point made during the early days of the "do we need torture" arguments of the war on terror.

Modern police can get the mafia to talk, without using torture. Cops are very restricted on no torture, because the case could be thrown out. So call whatever cops do in the interrogation room "Interrogation". That's what I think Bedrock's referring to.

Contrast that to what we think the CIA is up to (or at least the stereotyped not nice things). Waterboarding, jumper cables, etc.

Torture is effectively NOT Interrogation.

 

[Janx]

(Some spying beforehand has revealed that the bad guy does, in fact, employ a necromancer, and the party has obtained his name. Before approaching gate: use makeup kit to make one character look badly diseased and questionably alive, then cover him with a cloak and hood).

Good evening, sirs. We're here to see Onyxel. What? Of course we're allowed in; the master is eager to examine my unfortunate friend Aldor. Aldor, say hello.

(Aldor flips back the hood, lurches forward a few steps, then pretends to vomit, spewing the mouthful of sour wine and crumbled hard boiled egg yolk he's been holding directly on the guard)

Oh no. Aldor! What a mess. Well don't worry, it's not a disease. It's a curse, and I'm sure you can't catch it. I think. Only humans can... oh, you're a human, aren't you? Still, I wouldn't worry. Unless you start sweating. Are you sweating? Hmmm. Itching or nervousness? Unsettled stomach? Oh, my. Tell you what, why don't you come with us? We'd better get you to Onyxel and let him have a look at you. He'll know what to do. Lead the way!

Nice colorful example.

I just watch Ocean's Eleven last night. THIS is the kind of thing a party of social skill monkeys would pull.

Is the complaint that it's too easy for the party to trick the guard? Versus the other most abused PC responses to problems:
kill it
burn it

Some folks seem to be disagreeing on the realism of these social skills.

Consider, somebody makes up their mind to hire you in the first 10 SECONDS of meeting you. The rest of the interview is them rationalizing to themselves on your answers that "you show promise and can learn our business" or "this person doesn't get our business and we shouldn't hire him". Seriously, there's been studies on this. That means the social skill check is influencing this first impression effect. Humans really are that poorly designed.

Additionally, consider Social Engineering, the hacker craft of talking people into letting you into buildings, giving up passwords. And this is a social skill developed by nerds, a people not known for their social skills.

It is NOT that implausible that somebody with good social engineering skills could bluff their way into a White House dinner. Oh wait, that actually happened.

Could the rules be better designed? Sure. are all the extreme results implausible? Reality would disagree.