Are we fair to WotC?

[Warbringer]

@VyvyanBasterd

Paizo subscription model aside, which is really for module content anyway, this is pretty much the model.

The PRD gives you all the rules for free, all of them, but if you want it pretty, or want content to playhe game, or battle maps for the encounters, or pretty miniatures to put them on, then they have you covered.

It's amazing that in the free-to-play game market, around only 5-10% or players pay, and even then about 90% of revenue comes from 10% of those payers... Think about that ... 1% of all players generate 90% of the revenue and subsidies the free play for every one else.

That's hard in a print model, where 80% of your cost is physical production and distribution, but workable in the electronic distribution model (for your free portion anyway). In short, WoTC needs to re establish an SRD model for Next, and make its money selling the pretty stuff

 

[Dannager]

As to the pain in my thumbs, I am not sure why I would have to defend my experience to you, but if I say there is pain, then there is pain.

I'm not forcing you to defend your experience. I believe that the experience was uncomfortable for you. I also believe that that's because you weren't actually using an e-reader. The problems you're experiencing are likely due to the fact that a Kindle Fire is a full tablet computer, and weighs twice as much as an actual e-reader, and is designed to be used as a tablet first, and e-reader second.

Its not necessarily from the weight but from the posture of the thumbs.

But you, admittedly, haven't actually used an e-reader before, so you have no idea how it would feel to use one, right?

 

[Dannager]

They may be non-issues to you, but since you keep hearing the same comments, isn't it possible that, rather than just blowing smoke, all these people saying the same thing are actually discussing what are, indeed, legitimate issues to them?

You're not following me. I'm not saying that I don't understand where they're coming from. I'm saying that almost every complaint they had was factually false. You saw it in this very thread - people complaining that e-readers are heavier than paperbacks (false), that they suffer from glare issues (false), that you have to be constantly connected (false), that you have to swipe across the screen to turn a page (false), etc. None of these are actually true. This isn't a matter of subjective opinion. This is a matter of people not understanding what an e-reader is and how it works, but convincing themselves that they do anyway.

Why is it so frustrating to you that some people have these issues? Just because you don't find them problematic doesn't mean that nobody else will, either. And if you keep hearing it from multiple sources, dismissing those concerns is no more constructive than "Your style of gaming is badwrongfun!" is.

Again, I'm not dismissing them because I personally don't experience those problems. I'm dismissing them because they are factually and demonstrably untrue.

 

[Wicht]

But you, admittedly, haven't actually used an e-reader before, so you have no idea how it would feel to use one, right?

I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Because I assumed most e-readers were going to the touch-screen model used by the Fire as opposed to the push-button model? That may be an erroneous assumption but it does not of itself mean I have never used a reader or examined them in the stores.

The typical e-reader is a thin device which is normally held in a certain way between finger and thumb and this can cause me discomfort and eventually pain. The buttons are irrelevant. Why does my discomfort cause you so much displeasure when I express that it exists? That seems slightly illogical. If you don't have such a problem, I'm happy for you but that in no way changes my actual situation or experiences.

Again, I like my Kindle, but its not going to replace books for me, nor am I so enamored of other readers I have seen or used that I am rushing to ditch my library. It is what it is. A mostly subjective judgment based on life experiences and personal preferences. Books just have certain advantages for me that an e-reader cannot fully duplicate and one of those is that books are easier on my hands and thumbs.

 

[Dannager]

I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Because I assumed most e-readers were going to the touch-screen model used by the Fire as opposed to the push-button model? That may be an erroneous assumption but it does not of itself mean I have never used a reader or examined them in the stores.

Again, the Kindle Fire is a tablet, and not an e-reader. If you check out Amazon's product pages, you'll note that the Kindle Fire is marketed as a full tablet that you can use to read your books, while there is an entire separate list of e-readers designed specifically for reading. What you have been using was not an e-reader, and that's where many of your complaints are stemming from (tablets have much shorter battery lives, have full-color displays that suffer from normal glare issues, are much heavier to accommodate the extra hardware, don't have natural book-flipping buttons, etc.).

And if the buttons are irrelevant, why did you specifically mention having to swipe across the screen as being part of the reason you dislike e-readers? The whole point of the buttons is to allow you to read with one hand, which you said was impossible to do with an e-reader.

The typical e-reader is a thin device which is normally held in a certain way between finger and thumb and this can cause me discomfort and eventually pain. The buttons are irrelevant. Why does my discomfort cause you so much displeasure when I express that it exists?

Because you've stated repeatedly that your experience is based on the use of a Kindle Fire, which isn't an e-reader. And many of your other complaints about e-readers are false, so I don't think it's unreasonable of me to be skeptical that you have any significant amount of experience with them.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm saying that almost every complaint they had was factually false.

Except the for the points about electronic devices being more distracting than books (fact), and not faster than books (fact), and not accessible to everyone (fact). And all that other stuff about subscription business models vs ownership and all that other stuff.

The only facts you've been able to find contradict minor points that are increasingly irrelevant to this thread topic, while you've ignored the bulk of the arguments from various sources to the effect that electronic is not replacing hard copy, subscription is not replacing ownership, and game content is still a product and not a service.

 

[Wicht]

What you have been using was not an e-reader, and that's where many of your complaints are stemming from (tablets have much shorter battery lives, have full-color displays that suffer from normal glare issues, are much heavier to accommodate the extra hardware, don't have natural book-flipping buttons, etc.)....
Because you've stated repeatedly that your experience is based on the use of a Kindle Fire, which isn't an e-reader. And many of your other complaints about e-readers are false, so I don't think it's unreasonable of me to be skeptical that you have any significant amount of experience with them.

This argument is getting a little strange. My pain, when I express its existence makes you unhappy with me because I just haven't used readers enough? If they cause me discomfort with extended use then why would I want to use them more to prove the point to you?

Let us assume that the perfect e-reader has a one month battery life, weighs about an ounce, has no glare (which I don't remember complaining about), and has perfect page flipping buttons.... The same e-reader still causes me eventual discomfort to use for extended periouds of time, still is a slower read (for me) than a book (I don't know why), is harder and slower to use as a reference (for me), and has less aesthetic appeal (to me). Books are more pleasant to me, more enjoyable to touch, handle and view, smell better, are easier to pass around, quicker to reference (for me), look better on a shelf all lined up, and, if my kids sit on them or the dogs chew on them, don't generally put me out a hundred bucks. Browsing through a bookstore is one of life's small pleasures (for me) and buying an electronic book in an online catalog just does not possess the same appeal (to me).

 

[Dannager]

Except the for the points about electronic devices being more distracting than books (fact), and not faster than books (fact), and not accessible to everyone (fact). And all that other stuff about subscription business models vs ownership and all that other stuff.

I'm talking about general e-reader use, not about using them at the D&D table. The people I'd heard those complaints from were not D&D players, just people I know or had spoken to.

 

[Dannager]

This argument is getting a little strange. My pain, when I express its existence makes you unhappy with me because I just haven't used readers enough? If they cause me discomfort with extended use then why would I want to use them more to prove the point to you?

Look, if your discomfort is actually because you don't like e-readers in general, and you have enough experience using actual e-readers to feel comfortable judging them as inferior to books, then that's cool. But you spent pages explaining how you don't like e-readers because of a bunch of things that are false. I'm not quibbling with your personal preference. I just want to make sure that you understand that some of the things you're complaining about being features of an e-reader aren't actually features of an e-reader.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm talking about general e-reader use, not about using them at the D&D table.

Exactly my point. It's a tangent that's really not relevant here.