D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Mort

Legend
Supporter
If we are both assuming an impartial GM, and assuming equally clever players, than the number of beneficial outcomes is proportional to the number of options.

So, the character with more options is better off.


Scout with a familiar in the wrong place, and you are out a familiar. Scout with a PC in the wrong place and you are completing the adventure with 3 PCs instead of 4.

Assuming both an impartial GM and equally clever players, keeping the same proportions, the fighter has 5 options, 2 of which are obviously useless, 1 of which would appear to work but wouldn’t have an effect, and 1 which would either be detrimental, unoptimal or work smoothly.

Let's not forget that if the campaign hits 13+ and is exploration/scouting heavy the wizard has one of the best options to help with that (exporation/scouting) in the game.

Say the group has a really good rogue/scout, but the areas they are going into are ludicrously dangerous. The wizard simulacrums the rogue/scout slaps a telepathic bond on him and viola - an amazing scout option with little to no risk for the party at all.

With the bonus of NOT having a high level wizard simulacrum to piss off the DM enough into banning the spell.

Sure it's a bit pricey, but it's less than taking your chances and then having to raise multiple party members!
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
On the other hand you can play the odds. There are times when scouting as the rogue is detrimental. All they can do is play the odds.
A scouting rogue tend to have their odds distinctly in their favor. Especially if they're drow, as they can bring the darkness with them. Same for shadow monks but independent of race.

And if they get caught, they have a much better chance of simply neutralizing the scouts than the familiar that gets caught which would only be able to, best-case, retreat.
At times yes. First the shadow monk and the rogue can not fly. Or slip through tiny spaces.
The arcane trickster rogue can. But if we're excluding third-casters for some reason, both of those have abilities that let them elevate themselves easily.

The shadowmonk can teleport in areas of dim light. And if they're a high-elf shadow monk, they can use prestidigitation to snuff out nonmagical light while using darkness to dispel most magical light sources like a continual flame. Then, they can teleport.

So: Fighter and wizard are both unspecialised at stealthing. And because of the presence of one spell that doesn't even use a spell slot you want me to compare the wizard with the two most strongly stealth-focused options in the game. I think that speaks volumes about the difference in adaptability, don't you?
If a wizard chooses to use up their spellbook pages for a stealth-focused spell and they prepare it for the day and are able to use it well, then they should be rewarded for it. That makes a satisfying loop for a wizard that masters it.

The fighter can adapt to a stealth-like mission too, though not as drastically. But it's not like the fighter player is surprised that they aren't stealthing as optimally as the rogue or the wizard with good stealth spell options prepared. It's not like a fighter's features are completely hidden. A fighter character knows what the class is giving them. They're choosing to forgoe being the stealthiest character in the game. Which is fine. But they're not necessarily helpless in all stealth missions.
The familiar is never detrimental. Sometimes it is better to not use it and instead either park it on your shoulder or dismiss it. But that doesn't make having the option detrimental unless there's an actual trade-off.
There is a trade-off. Putting aside the fact you have to get yourself 10gp worth of charcoal to cast the spell, you need to also allocate a spells known and an hour to cast it. An hour and ten minutes if you're using it as a ritual. Which can be costly when time is of the essence.

A rogue is okay to scout immediately, inherently, and efficiently.
Indeed. And there is no reason it shouldn't.
Cost v Demand. You may demand it, but clearly it wasn't necessary for 5e's success. Could you promise that it would be worth their while?
The question is what doesn't? Why do you want other people to not have fun playing what they want to?
How does keeping the fighter as-is hindering your fun? You can simply ignore the class.
If they can suggest reasonable ways to simplify the barbarian I'll support them. One of the two issues here is that the fight-only musclehead is more barbarian than fighter. The other is that variety is good.
And what if you don't find it reasonable?

What gives your judgement such weight and priority?
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Would like to flip the question. How many racial features are flat out redundant for a wizard?
There aren't any. At least not in the PHB. However, there are features whose usefulness in a wizard is either minor or downright neglible.

Almost none of the half-orc features have incredibly practical uses.
 

A scouting rogue tend to have their odds distinctly in their favor. Especially if they're drow, as they can bring the darkness with them. Same for shadow monks but independent of race.

And if they get caught, they have a much better chance of simply neutralizing the scouts than the familiar that gets caught which would only be able to, best-case, retreat.

The arcane trickster rogue can. But if we're excluding third-casters for some reason, both of those have abilities that let them elevate themselves easily.

The shadowmonk can teleport in areas of dim light. And if they're a high-elf shadow monk, they can use prestidigitation to snuff out nonmagical light while using darkness to dispel most magical light sources like a continual flame. Then, they can teleport.


If a wizard chooses to use up their spellbook pages for a stealth-focused spell and they prepare it for the day and are able to use it well, then they should be rewarded for it. That makes a satisfying loop for a wizard that masters it.

The fighter can adapt to a stealth-like mission too, though not as drastically. But it's not like the fighter player is surprised that they aren't stealthing as optimally as the rogue or the wizard with good stealth spell options prepared. It's not like a fighter's features are completely hidden. A fighter character knows what the class is giving them. They're choosing to forgoe being the stealthiest character in the game. Which is fine. But they're not necessarily helpless in all stealth missions.

There is a trade-off. Putting aside the fact you have to get yourself 10gp worth of charcoal to cast the spell, you need to also allocate a spells known and an hour to cast it. An hour and ten minutes if you're using it as a ritual. Which can be costly when time is of the essence.

A rogue is okay to scout immediately, inherently, and efficiently.

Cost v Demand. You may demand it, but clearly it wasn't necessary for 5e's success. Could you promise that it would be worth their while?

How does keeping the fighter as-is hindering your fun? You can simply ignore the class.

And what if you don't find it reasonable?

What gives your judgement such weight and priority?
Before we get into more proposed martial darkness spell shenanigans, we should note that it takes very specific character creation choices to see anything within the area of that spell. Character creation choices which until the last year have mandated a two level dip into a charisma casting class (what are monks key attributes again?). Now it's easier, but you still need to give up an ASI on it. On a monk, this is 1 of 5 for a MAD class. The shenanigans you suggest are more likely now than before, but I would not take them for being 'standard' in any way.

Also, the Shadow monk teleport comes online at level 6 and doesnt improve ever (I'm not saying it needs to, but it doesn't) A familiar is online at level 1 and there are options to make it better as time goes on or replace it with better options.

Lastly, familiars abilities are not entirely negated by being outside when the sun is out (aka most places for half the day)
 
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There aren't any. At least not in the PHB. However, there are features whose usefulness in a wizard is either minor or downright neglible.

Almost none of the half-orc features have incredibly practical uses.
Half-orc was the only one I could think of that even came close. And saying no to going unconscious once a day is pretty solid on a low hp class.

It's really only Savage Attacks that's maybe irrelevant, and even that could be put to use for a gish.

It's a power leak. Martial classes do not always get the full benefits out of racial feature power budgets, while wizards do. In addition, because many racial spells are saving throw based, they are often kinda bad on a martial.

The weirdest part of this is that the leak happens with races that 'should' be archetypal for those martial classes. Stout dwarven warrior doesn't get any benefit to being a warrior from their martial heritage. Sneaky goblin rogue is no sneakier than any other rogue.

And it's not like these are insignificant ribbon type leaks. Bonus action hide or medium armor proficiency is a huge boon to a wizard, dramatically increasing survivability over the course of their entire career. Hell, the armor proficiency means that wizards can wear magical armor too, which is supposed to be a fighter thing. I can't think of anything that provides even close to that level of benefit from racial spellcasting features.

Edit: I take it back..Variant Human..Magic Initiate...for Find Familiar.
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
If we are both assuming an impartial GM, and assuming equally clever players, than the number of beneficial outcomes is proportional to the number of options.
I can disprove that easily overall concept easily. Here's a thought experiment.

A party of two walk into the woods where they face a broken bridge. Going around would take too long. The first character has two options: magically repair the bridge or they can attempt to jump the gap. Unbeknownst to them, even if the bridge was repaired, their weight would break it again and they'd fall and the character has only a 25% chance of succeeding the jump. The second character has one option: jump the gap. But they have a 75% chance of succeeding.

Character one has more options, yet character two is the only one with good odds on a beneficial outcome.

It is an extreme example, but I only had to disprove the negative.
Scout with a familiar in the wrong place, and you are out a familiar. Scout with a PC in the wrong place and you are completing the adventure with 3 PCs instead of 4.
Though the scout has more options to get out of their "wrong place." If we're assuming a rogue, high stealth means they aren't as likely to get caught. High theives' tool proficiency to disarm traps and locked doors in their way. High dex saves to possibly bypass any trap damage even if they don't disarm it.

It'd be quite the scenario for the enemy to catch the rogue and the rogue is unable to escape. It'd have to be nothing short of knowing the rogue was going to be alone and constructing your dungeon with that in mind.
 



A scenario as exotic as.."They close and bar the door behind you"
I often wonder what the "you can't take a long rest" parties do when wizards get rope trick and tiny hut?

I had a player tell me about a DM that insisted on not getting long rests, so the wizard took tiny hut, so the DM tried to have soldiers line up outside it to ambush... but it is transparent 1 way and you can fire out but not back in... that DM quite because the players just took out bows and took pot shots
 


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