D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Reynard]

Yup, a lv 20 Fighter should match or exceed any world records. For example, the world record for a standing long jump is a little short of 12 feet 3 inches. In D&D, to break that World Record would require a strength score of 26!!! Even a Barbarian with their maximum 24 STR at level 20 falls short of that.

Remember that the rules explicitly tell you to use Athletics to make a longer than normal jump (even if they don't tell you exactly what the DCs and results are, as they did in 3.x). So no -- a 20th level fighter is not limited in the way you describe -- you just have to roll. And that roll represents the same uncertainty that an Olympic athlete deals with every time they get up there. There are 3 medals for a reason.

The mechanical perspective is irrelevant as long as it achieves the desired narrative ends.

That's not true. it is a game after all.

Here's a few ways that splitting the arrow could be accomplished in mechanical terms:

1) The fighter can make a called shot, automatically striking the intended point if an object, or automatically getting a critical hit if a creature. You can use this X times.

2) When you hit, your next attack is automatically upgraded. An upgraded attack becomes a hit if you rolled a miss, a critical hit if you rolled a hit, or deals one extra weapon die of damage if you rolled a critical hit. An upgraded attack does not upgrade the next attack.

3) If you attack an inanimate object, it it an automatic critical hit.

There's three completely different mechanical implementations of the same narrative conceit.

Now we are getting somewhere. Those sound like good feats or maneuvers or "archer archetype" features. What's the problem?

As to when you would use it? How about when an NPC is about to be hanged and you want to show off by slicing through the rope with an arrow? I realize that's pushing the bounds of realism, but it's hella cool and definitely something a player might want to attempt. The fighter player is at the mercy of the DM. Meanwhile, the wizard player can cast Shatter on the rope and probably auto succeed (despite the silliness of shattering a rope).

I am not sure why you think the fighter shooting the rope is GM fiat. The rope has an AC and HP.

 

[Reynard]

Edit: I'd also argue that a DM giving the arrow an AC of 30 isn't DMing in good faith, which isn't a rules issue.

The SRD gives rope an AC of 11 so yeah, AC 30 is pretty bad faith.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

i wonder about that... if we WILL see the same people or new people and what the ratio is

and we may never know

The playtest Is being marketed on DND Beyond which has 8milliin users. I think it will different

 

[Fanaelialae]

I would actually require some strength between 16-20 + athletics and a good roll. Athletics is used to jump unusually far.

Let's say you have a 20th level Dex fighter (musketeer) with a 10 Str. You have a 1st level wizard with the same Str. Either both trained athletics, or neither did. Why is the fighter just as bad at jumping as the wizard?

IMO, a 20th level fighter should be way better than a 1st level wizard at things that ought to be core competencies of the fighter. The fighter is the jock. So why is he so bad at even basic jock things? It pretty much doesn't matter how a 20th level wizard was built, their fantasy of telling reality to sit down and shut up is fully realized regardless. I think that's kind of the crux of the issue. Two entirely different set of standards for the two classes in terms of what it means to be competent in their respective area of expertise.

 

[Maxperson]

The SRD gives rope an AC of 11 so yeah, AC 30 is pretty bad faith.

Rope though is thin, but also long and really easy to hit while it's hanging there. I'd probably give the arrow an AC from somewhere between 16-18 due to how narrow thing is when you are looking down the shaft, rather than swing at the broad side like a rope. That would of course change if the arrow were say stuck in a tree and you wanted to break the shaft. Then you are swinging at the broad side which would be AC 12, since it's harder than rope.

 

[Reynard]

Let's say you have a 20th level Dex fighter (musketeer) with a 10 Str. You have a 1st level wizard with the same Str. Either both trained athletics, or neither did. Why is the fighter just as bad at jumping as the wizard?

Because the player did not build an Athletics fighter?

 

[Scott Christian]

Where's the irony?

I see Max saying the game is balanced around a certain amount of encounters before a long rest, someone else saying that the stated number of encounters is hard to consistently implement in a way that makes sense, and him replying with a suggested change that could make meeting the goal of getting that number of encounters per long rest easier/possible.

The number of encounters per long rest is, in my humble opinion, a ridiculous thing to debate. Every story is different. Every player group is different. And every DM is different. There is no average. And, in a thread like this, where we are discussing the wizard being all that, it is best to err on the side of many rests, rather than fewer.

 

[Reynard]

Rope though is thin, but also long and really easy to hit while it's hanging there. I'd probably give the arrow an AC from somewhere between 16-18 due to how narrow thing is when you are looking down the shaft, rather than swing at the broad side like a rope. That would of course change if the arrow were say stuck in a tree and you wanted to break the shaft. Then you are swinging at the broad side which would be AC 12, since it's harder than rope.

I wouldn't change its AC. I would just apply disadvantage. That models the fact that it has to be some very bad luckfor the archer to miss (rolling two 1s) rather than just screw it up.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Because the player did not build an Athletics fighter?

Yet a diviner wizard can cast fireball quite effectively.

 

[Maxperson]

Let's say you have a 20th level Dex fighter (musketeer) with a 10 Str. You have a 1st level wizard with the same Str. Either both trained athletics, or neither did. Why is the fighter just as bad at jumping as the wizard?

Why would the quickness(dex) let you jump(str) farther?

IMO, a 20th level fighter should be way better than a 1st level wizard at things that ought to be core competencies of the fighter. The fighter is the jock. So why is he so bad at even basic jock things.

That's reasonable, and why the champion gets Remarkable Athlete. I'd be okay with the champion ability being applied to fighters in general.