D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Yaarel]

I think this is part of the issue:

"Fighter" is just too generic as a class. I mean, it has only a handful of class features:

• Second Wind
• Fighting Style
• Action Surge
• Extra Attack (and 2 and 3 of course...)
• Indomitable
• and (if you want to include them) two additional ASIs.

Every other class either gets a LOT more features OR gets spells, or both.

Anyway, perhaps I will move this to another thread as it has nothing to do really with Wizards, and I don't want to threadjack further.

Put the new thread in the 5.5 forum.

Hopefully, some of the 5.5 designers occasionally peruse it, and might notice it.

 

[Oofta]

To answer the OP, I don't think wizards are all that. They tend to be glass cannons that die easily if they don't have support. . They rarely have exactly the right spell prepped or enough spell slots to do everything they'd like.

I've played in and run games up to level 20 and, yes, at times wizards are awesome. In my wife's game our 20th level wizards took out a small army encampment with meteor storm. The flip side of that? It only happened because the DM wanted to give them a moment to shine. He used the spell exactly once.

In my campaign? Presumably the wizard will be casting plane shift to get the heck out of dodge. But if that wasn't an option? I just would have found some other way of getting them home.

By and large the wizard is flashy but the fighter is the Energizer bunny. I've never encountered these wizards that always have the right spell at hand that regularly makes them supreme in any aspect of the game.

What really matters is whether the people playing characters other than wizards fun. In my experience the a resounding yes. People cheered the meteor storm, no one felt left out because they didn't get that particular moment in the spotlight.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Put the new thread in the 5.5 forum.

Hopefully, some of the 5.5 designers occasionally peruse it, and might notice it.

Sometimes I think debates here get as contentious as they do because of a delusion that WotC designers are reading along, taking notes.

“If only I can win the Warlord debate, WotC will take notice…”

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

But I have a harder time seeing that for a "Fighter"....

Mechanically, sure, but how to justify the narrative without it seeming "magical", which is something A LOT of people want to avoid when bumping up the Fighter.

For me, the challenge is coming up with a supporting narrative for such features. I've had little success for those cases with Fighter.

You can flavor it as tactical genius some times.

But one barrier I think is that people want "non magical" and also don't want to venture into narrative control mechanics, limited use abilties, abstractions, etc, etc.

They constrain both the narrative fiction AND the mechanics that could be used to model cool non magical abilities.

The reason non magical action heroes do cool things in fiction is a combination of skill/ability AND the narrative circumstances being just right for them to do their thing and have the spotlight (especially in a team with Wizards/cosmic level superheros).

I mentioned this one before. The poor man's dimension door -- "With an action, you move from point A to point B if within 200 feet if at all action hero possible. The DM may even have enviromental circumstances work toward this goal (e.g., poles will fall giving you a smaller jump, the dragon passes by so you can jump on it's back and off, etc.)"

This is semi-reliable (although still way more DM dependant than most spells), breaks the action economy, and allows for a bad ass movement that is typical martial action hero because we don't have to worry about move X feet roll athetics Y.

And the Fighter is not suddently faster -- the ability just focuses the spotlight -- other people are doing other stuff that doesn't matter. Accept that combat can be more abstract and you have more design space.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

See, and this is a big part of the the problem. A lot of people want but just as many don't.

It's true some want and some don't. But I still don't understand why it has to be a problem? What's the issue with having a seperate optional Mythic Martial class though?

I see mythic martial fans saying let's widen this tent and keep the mundane martial concept AND add the mythic martial as a seperate class, and I see a lot (not all) mundane martial supporters arguing that having a non core class with these kinds of abilties would ruin the game even if they will never use it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It's true some want and some don't. But I still don't understand why it has to be a problem? What's the issue with having a seperate optional Mythic Martial class though?

As a (amateur) designer, for me it is about personal interest. I couldn't care less what other people want to create for their own tables, but my time is limited and I doubt I can create (let alone envision!) stuff "mythical" enough to make those players happy.

When I posted upthread about an Epic tier, it is the only place I could really see such things, but I would also place 7th-9th level spells there as well.

I see mythic martial fans saying let's widen this tent and keep the mundane martial concept AND add the mythic martial as a seperate class, and I see a lot (not all) mundane martial supporters arguing that having a non core class with these kinds of abilties would ruin the game even if they will never use it.

I don't know about "ruin the game" but I understand for some it is also about resource management. WotC has limited designers, time, and money to invest in creating content. If they are spending those resources on something like a Mythic Martial class, which I will never use, I see that as taking away those resources from creating content I do want.

Call it selfish interest? shrug

I can definitely see a market FOR it, and I'm sure there is 3PP material out there (I would think!), but I don't know if there is enough interest for WotC to invest in it.

But hey, they made the Artificer, which I think is--well, let's just say not a good class concept--and leave it at that. And, I don't allow them in the games I run and probably wouldn't play in a game with them.

Call it irrational, crazy thinking? shrug

So, I (anyway) am perfectly able to ignore official content if it doesn't fit my version of D&D, and with the direction WotC is taking things, it is a pretty good thing I can do this.

 

[leozg]

High level campaigns I play rarely deal with monsters, it's more like urban campaigns. For this type of campaign monster analysis is void.
Besides this, if you wanna face a martial, just boost AC, but if you wanna face a wizard, you have to boost 6 saves, because wizards have options.
Options are not just being able to fly, teleport, see invisible and a lot or other stuff you will have a hard time putting in numbers to compare power level, but also options on how to be effective in doing damage.
It is really hard as a high level group DM to create interesting and challenging adventures that are fun for martials and casters when the wizard is able to solve almost everything with a couple of spells. WotC have just one adventure in high level tier (Dungeon of the Mad Mage) and this is a dungeon crawl, maybe it's hard for them too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Something to note is that the "anime" fighter has been a staple of every edition of D&D. It's simply that it's been gated behind magic items. Which, for whatever reason, makes it okay with a large majority that would otherwise vehemently object to the idea.

Anime speed and jumping? Boots of springing and striding!

Anime super strength? Belt of giant strength!

Awesome anime hair? Hat of disguise!

As long as they're DM-gated features, most people seem to be okay with it. Suggest that these be made into class features (even if they're kept skinned as magic items) and IME you get a lot of pushback. It would be almost fair if we went back to the early days of DM-gating spells. (Not that I think we should.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

But hey, they made the Artificer, which I think is--well, let's just say not a good class concept--and leave it at that. And, I don't allow them in the games I run and probably wouldn't play in a game with them.

Wait.

As in a game run by someone else with someone else playing the artificer?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Anime super strength? Belt of giant strength!

Are we really going to call that 'super' strength?

Actually strong, yes. But 'super'?