D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Maxperson]

If the game requires 6-8 encounters per day to be balanced, why is this so rare in WotC’s books? I don’t own Saltmarsh, but both Candlekeep and Citadel tend to be closer to 4-5 combat encounters rather than 6-8.

I don't own Citadel and Candlekeep I really haven't used yet. One of my players did buy me Hoard of the Dragon Queen and in that one the encounters are fast and furious.

What difference does it make if the encounters are close together? Wouldn’t that just penalize the short rest classes in favour of the long rest classes?

They don't have to be back to back. You can have a few short rests in-between so the short rest classes are fine.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not disagreeing, but say for the sake of argument you ditch a prescribed number of encounters per day. It seems to me that if you do this, you need to standardize resource recovery across classes.

As long as you have some no resource recharge, some short resource recharge and some long resource recharge classes, the total number of encounters per day will have an impact on game balance.

That seems to have been a bridge too far back in 4e days, though personally, I didn’t have a problem with it.

You have a couple axes you can work along.

1. Lessen the gap in resource recovery. (I'm more or less ok with there being some variation)

2. Lessen the gap in impact that spells have vs. other class abilities. Perhaps we could skip some of the encounter-killer spells.

I kind of think that 2 is a better place to start, but you could go either way..

 

[Minigiant]

If they went down to a manageable 2-4 encounters a day (with 1 short rest as default), not only would it be easier to balance, but Spellcasters wouldn't need so many spell slots and would actually be easier to handle by players.

I'd think 4-6 is better. I like the average of 5.

4 normal encounters and 1 random encounter. 2 deadly encounters and 1 random encounter.

Or a 2-4 encounter base with the assumption that magic items and treasure can boost you up to 4-6 or 6-8 with Monty Hall.

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree.

The problem is 8 is too high.

Balancing one class to have 8 things, one for each encounter with another class that has 2 things, one per each encounter is the source of the problem.

Yeah. The fighter just has too many things to do in combat. I mean a 3rd level Battle Master with 2 short rests has 3 action surges and and 12 superiority dice to use his 4 different maneuvers with. 15 things to spread over 8 encounters compared to the 3rd level wizard with his 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells, plus another 2 spell levels from his Arcane Recovery ability. The fighter gets more than double. The fiend!

 

[Maxperson]

I'd think 4-6 is better. I like the average of 5.

4 normal encounters and 1 random encounter. 2 deadly encounters and 1 random encounter.

Or a 2-4 encounter base with the assumption that magic items and treasure can boost you up to 4-6 or 6-8 with Monty Hall.

Even that's too many for a daily encounter total. A game should be balanced such that the DM can decide to challenge the whole group with 1 hard encounter or 9 much easier ones. It should be up to the DM how many happen in a day.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Yeah. The fighter just has too many things to do in combat. I mean a 3rd level Battle Master with 2 short rests has 3 action surges and and 12 superiority dice to use his 4 different maneuvers with. 15 things to spread over 8 encounters compared to the 3rd level wizard with his 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells, plus another 2 spell levels from his Arcane Recovery ability. The fighter gets more than double. The fiend!

Wow, you've managed to show that at the levels everyone agrees that there is no meaningful power disparity, that there is no meaningful power disparity. Obvious strawman is obvious.

 

[Maxperson]

Wow, you've managed to show that at the levels everyone agrees that there is no meaningful power disparity, that there is no meaningful power disparity. Obvious strawman is obvious.

Pick a level then.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Pick a level then.

How about the levels most people have been discussing. 11+?

 

[Maxperson]

How about the levels most people have been discussing. 11+?

Pick one. Resource numbers change with every level.

 

[Oofta]

It’s an edge case where invisibiliy helps sneaking past the guards? It’s an edge case where teleportation let’s you get easy access or retreat where a rogue would struggle? I don’t think so.

In my experience, the only way to get past a guard is to be invisible is an edge case. How many times does a lone individual need to sneak past a guard? In addition, you still need to be stealthy. You can't automatically sneak past, many creatures rely primarily on senses other than sight to detect intruders. Even the lowly guard dog* that has advantage on perception for smell and hearing relies more on those abilities than sight.

How many 7th spells do y'all have? Teleport seems like it's the big trump card showing how awesome wizards are. It's a spell you don't get until 13th level. You don’t get a second 7th level slot until 20th, although of course you can use an even higher spell slot. If you have a 13th level or higher wizard who has the spell prepared and a slot slot and is in an area that doesn't stop teleport (or an enemy caster wit counterspell), yes its useful.

In my experience, also an edge case. One I've never seen occur in an actual game.

The only part the rogue is better at is making skill checks when they come up. Which is important but skill checks are only half of what excelling at the role entails.

The rogue will be better at virtually everything they've specialized in with the exception of a couple of edge cases. Still want invisibility? Take an arcane trickster or eldritch knight that's 8th level or higher. Or of course have one of the many classes that have it cast it on your rogue.

*Yes, I use guard dogs if it makes sense, they've been used for that purpose for millennia. At least I'm not going to go overboard and use the most terrifying guard beast ever! I'm talking of course about geese.