D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I'll take a stab at this, because I think I get where he's coming from.

Imagine you're on a team with Peyton Manning and you win the Superbowl every year. Winning the Superbowl is fun for everyone on the team, including the linebacker whose name no one ever remembers and even the guys who are riding the bench. They get Superbowl rings too. They're winners too, right?

Those of us who want a higher standard for fighters think that riding the bench, even at the Superbowl, is not an acceptable standard. Even being a random linebacker is not good enough.

If the wizard gets to be Peyton Manning, then the fighter ought to be William "the Refrigerator" Perry (a legendary linebacker). That's the standard (IMO) that the game ought to be aiming for.

I think this is the "don't worry about it" argument not the "it's better this way" argument.

"Don't worry about it, it's not really an issue because some people still have fun playing the Fighter even if the Wizard is a lot better".

It's not answering why the game is better if you always have to play the benchwarmer if you choose to play a fighter.

 

[Maxperson]

I'll take a stab at this, because I think I get where he's coming from.

Imagine you're on a team with Peyton Manning and you win the Superbowl every year. Winning the Superbowl is fun for everyone on the team, including the linebacker whose name no one ever remembers and even the guys who are riding the bench. They get Superbowl rings too. They're winners too, right?

Those of us who want a higher standard for fighters think that riding the bench, even at the Superbowl, is not an acceptable standard. Even being a random linebacker is not good enough.

A closer analogy would be the fighter as Barry Sanders, the Rogue as Terrell Owens and the Cleric as Jerry Rice. The wizard may be Peyton Manning, and get top billing, but he can't get where he's going without those other superstars who are really right there with him(or close to it) in terms of talent, but QBs just get the prestige.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think this is the "don't worry about it" argument not the "it's better this way" argument.

"Don't worry about it, it's not really an issue because some people still have fun playing the Fighter even if the Wizard is a lot better".

It's not answering why the game is better if you always have to play the benchwarmer if you choose to play a fighter.

Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough, but it is the "it's better this way" argument. People like winning (going to the Superbowl). Therefore, being on the same team as Peyton Manning makes the game better, because it makes it way more likely that you get to go to the Superbowl that if you had some random second-stringer QB.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A closer analogy would be the fighter as Barry Sanders, the Rogue as Terrell Owens and the Cleric as Jerry Rice. The wizard may be Peyton Manning, and get top billing, but he can't get where he's going without those other superstars who are really right there with him(or close to it) in terms of talent, but QBs just get the prestige.

I agree that's what the game ought to be. I don't agree that's an accurate metaphor for what the game actually is. I would say the default is typically more like Peyton Manning and the second-stringers. If you have exceptionally well optimized characters and the DM works to share the spotlight, then the rest of the party might feel like legends too, but I wouldn't say it's the default state.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Is it logical that the castle has forbiddence? Does it make sense for the enemy to have cats and dogs because rats are a common nuisance?

If castles have walls, doors have locks, chests have traps and chandeliers may or my not hold the weight of a fighter in armor, why should important areas go unprotected against teleport?

I don't set up anything to specifically nerf wizards (or any other class). But if it makes sense that the group will encounter a red dragon and the wizard only has fire based spells, or if the BBEGhas a counter to scrying it's not my problem.

Forbiddance is a logical countermeasure to employ for some secure areas... at a rate of occurrence that would be tied in some way to the frequency with which 11th level casters can be found in the setting. How reasonable it is for a player to expect it should be tied to that frequency. (And it's not even that great of protection since 30 days of 6th level spellcasting and 1000 gp worth of materials can be dispelled with a single spell slot from as low as 3rd level)

The reason that an area could go unprotected from teleportation is that it is much more difficult and expensive to provide that protection than it is to build walls or install locks. It requires you to dial up the assumptions for available spellcasting. In a setting where there's a bunch of perma-forbidden locations, finding an npc to raise the dead shouldn't be a significant challenge (Raise dead and reincarnate are 5th level spells), fast travel across the setting should be pretty widely available (teleportation circle is a 5th level spell, transport via plants is a 6th level spell), etc.

So, yes it makes sense for these protections to exist. All you have to do is abandon any pretense that your setting is low magic and react accordingly.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree that's what the game ought to be. I don't agree that's an accurate metaphor for what the game actually is. I would say the default is typically more like Peyton Manning and the second-stringers. If you have exceptionally well optimized characters and the DM works to share the spotlight, then the rest of the party might feel like legends too, but I wouldn't say it's the default state.

I don't agree. Each class does it's primary function better than the wizard can possibly do it. In football each position has a unique skillset, but there is some overlap. Tight Ends and Running Backs both block a lot. Both catch the ball, but TEs do it better, but not as good as the WR who doesn't block, but specializes in catching. The WR also occasionally runs the ball(end arounds, though technically a catch, is more of a running play) and very rarely one of those positions will throw the ball like a QB.

All the classes are famous at their positions.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Forbiddance is a logical countermeasure to employ for some secure areas... at a rate of occurrence that would be tied in some way to the frequency with which 11th level casters can be found in the setting. How reasonable it is for a player to expect it should be tied to that frequency. (And it's not even that great of protection since it can be dispelled with a single spell slot)

The reason that an area could go unprotected from teleportation is that it is much more difficult and expensive to provide that protection than it is to build walls or install locks. It requires you to dial up the assumptions for available spellcasting. In a setting where there's a bunch of perma-forbidden locations, finding an npc to raise the dead shouldn't be a significant challenge (Raise dead and reincarnate are 5th level spells), fast travel across the setting should be pretty widely available (teleportation circle is a 5th level spell, transport via plants is a 6th level spell), etc.

So, yes it makes sense for these protections to exist. All you have to do is abandon any pretense that your setting is low magic and react accordingly.

I'd take it one step further. These protections can be dispelled, and Dispel Magic is a lot more easily accessible than Forbiddance. It also takes only a few seconds to dispel what took a month to create. So I would question why there are so many wizards around with nothing better to do than endlessly create these protections, but none with the means and motive to subvert then.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly enough, but it is the "it's better this way" argument. People like winning (going to the Superbowl). Therefore, being on the same team as Peyton Manning makes the game better, because it makes it way more likely that you get to go to the Superbowl that if you had some random second-stringer QB.

Yeah, I see what you are saying but that seems be an argument for boosting the fighter as well.

If people are focused on winning, then why wouldn't you also want The Fridge and Peyton Manning?

The design choice in D&D being made is that the experience for the team is BETTER when the team is bench warmers and Peyton Manning instead of Manning, Rice, Fridge, and Sanders.

Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't agree. Each class does it's primary function better than the wizard can possibly do it. In football each position has a unique skillset, but there is some overlap. Tight Ends and Running Backs both block a lot. Both catch the ball, but TEs do it better, but not as good as the WR who doesn't block, but specializes in catching. The WR also occasionally runs the ball(end arounds, though technically a catch, is more of a running play) and very rarely one of those positions will throw the ball like a QB.

All the classes are famous at their positions.

I disagree. The wizard does their job exceptionally well with little need for optimization and essentially no requirement for the DM to ensure they get spotlight time.

Unless heavily optimized, I would say that most of the other classes are merely adequate at their roles. Just as an example, take the fighter. He's the linebacker right? Responsible for protecting the QB? Then why the heck is something like Sentinel a feat instead of baked directly into his kit!?

 

[Gammadoodler]

I'd take it one step further. These protections can be dispelled, and Dispel Magic is a lot more easily accessible than Forbiddance. It also takes only a few seconds to dispel what took a month to create. So I would question why there are so many wizards around with nothing better to do than endlessly create these protections, but none with the means and motive to subvert then.

Was getting there..caught me mid-edit