D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[ECMO3]

Easy. The Lich is literally known for returning from literally anything while not being known for being easy to blast apart. You also know not to go to poison attacks against them (which covers a lot of con saves) because they are undead.

As for a dragon, those things are huge. You do not go for either Str saves or Con saves vs huge creatures, period. And you do go for dex saves again because they are huge and can't dodge. Dragons have a literal Frightful Presence so you don't go for charisma. So avoid: Str, Con, Cha.

Sure if you have read the monster manual. If you haven't you shouldn't/wouldn't know those things.

I will add that strength is usually one of the weaker saves on a Dragon and they are usually proficient in Wisdom and Dexterity. So you would have gotten this wrong.

Here is the dex save from all of these, as well as their strength stat (which you are specifically not targeting) for comparison.

Adult Green: Dex 6, Strength 6
Adult Blue: Dex 5, Strength 7
Adult black: Dex 7, strength 6
Adult Red: Dex 6, Strength 8
adult white Dex 5, Strength 6

I believe on all Chromatic Dragons Intelligence is their lowest save, followed either by strength or dex and then the other one of those.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If you're going to load up the encounter with enough counterspells to shut down the wizard, you're designing that encounter to hard counter the wizard. To put it another way, you could have every major encounter take place in an anti-magic zone. I wouldn't take that as evidence that high level casters are useless. I would take that as evidence that you go out of your way to make high level casters useless. There's a massive distinction between the two.

What do you mean "load up"? First, players all know that counterspell is just about the most important spell in the game. I believe NPCs should be aware of the same thing. Second, even a single counterspell can cause a Wizard to (effectively) lose a turn, which in 5e is a very big deal. You don't have to "shut down" the Wizard for it to be a big problem.

Good teamwork, sure. But that encounter would be a whole lot more dangerous and less certain if you replaced the wizard with a third martial. And that shouldn't be the case. Martials should also have potent features that can turn the tide of battle, rather than simply being meat shields for the wizard who clean up the battlefield after the wizard trivializes the encounter for them.

And if you replace both martials with casters? Sure, you may get lucky with saving throws and lock them all up, but if something goes wrong, and one monster gets loose and causes a caster to lose concentration, freeing another monster from control, things can get out of hand pretty quickly.

The game works best with a mix, in my opinion. Working as intended.

 

[Bill Zebub]

When I play a Rogue, which I play more than any other class, I do not feel that I have made a "bad" choice even though it is probably the second weakest class. When I play a fighter, which I don't play a lot but which I do play at times, I don't feel I made a bad choice.

Same here. I love playing rogues.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

When I play a Rogue, which I play more than any other class, I do not feel that I have made a "bad" choice even though it is probably the second weakest class. When I play a fighter, which I don't play a lot but which I do play at times, I don't feel I made a bad choice.

Are your feelings on the matter definitive?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Are your feelings on the matter definitive?

I don’t think they are saying that.

 

[Mort]

What do you mean "load up"? First, players all know that counterspell is just about the most important spell in the game. I believe NPCs should be aware of the same thing. Second, even a single counterspell can cause a Wizard to (effectively) lose a turn, which in 5e is a very big deal. You don't have to "shut down" the Wizard for it to be a big problem.

If Counterspell really is "the most important spell in the game..." then haven't we conceded that magic is over the top powerful?

And if the wizard knows that a large majority of the combats will have opponents that can counterspell they will take steps. Such as using invisibility more often to get that first spell off (now to counterspell the opponents need counterspell AND see invisibility or truesight up).

Regardless, that's yet another combat example. Wizards and fighters are BOTH excellent at combat, just in different ways.

And if you replace both martials with casters? Sure, you may get lucky with saving throws and lock them all up, but if something goes wrong, and one monster gets loose and causes a caster to lose concentration, freeing another monster from control, things can get out of hand pretty quickly.

The game works best with a mix, in my opinion. Working as intended.

Yes, IN COMBAT, a mix will get you best results. What about out of combat?

 

[Mort]

Same here. I love playing rogues.

Rogues are great in 5e. They are great in combat (with lots of fun options). AND they are great in exploration or social tiers because of their good access to skills combined with expertise (at worst the rogue will do great in 2/3 tiers). What's not to like?

Worth mentioning though that the arcane trickster is generally considered the "best" rogue mechanically because of what? Magic.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don’t think they are saying that.

They are rebutting the idea that mechanical inferiority is in any way relevant for whether a class is "bad." Their reason for saying so is that they feel good when they play rogues, despite recognizing that rogues are mechanically inferior. What other conclusion to draw is there than that some person's or group's feelings are the only determining factor of whether a class is "bad," and mechanical inferiority is utterly irrelevant?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sure if you have read the monster manual. If you haven't you shouldn't/wouldn't know those things.

You mean I wouldn't know:

1. Liches were both undead famous for returning? Wrong. That one's got out in popular culture
2. Dragons were huge? I'm looking at the dragons in character
3. Dragons have a literal Frightful Presence? That is normally used in the first round. Or even reports of the dragon

I'm playing a character that's supposed to live in the world. Not a character from an Isikai who has never even heard of these creatures before - and everything I suggested

I will add that strength is usually one of the weaker saves on a Dragon and they are usually proficient in Wisdom and Dexterity. So you would have gotten this wrong.

Here is the dex save from all of these, as well as their strength stat (which you are specifically not targeting) for comparison.

Adult Green: Dex 6, Strength 6
Adult Blue: Dex 5, Strength 7
Adult black: Dex 7, strength 6
Adult Red: Dex 6, Strength 8
adult white Dex 5, Strength 6

So what you are saying is that out of five dragons three have strength saves that are higher than their dexterity, in one case it's equal, and in one case the dex save is higher by a single point. No, I don't think I got this wrong.

Yeah, going for Dex over Strength is playing the odds well.

I believe on all Chromatic Dragons Intelligence is their lowest save, followed either by strength or dex and then the other one of those.

And you'd be incorrect. Wisdom saves aren't always great. Int is always the worst, Con is always the best and Cha second for any dragon larger than a wyrmling.
Adult Red: Dex +6, Wis +7, Str +8
Adult Blue: Dex +5, Wis +7, Str +7
Adult Black: Wis +6, Str + 6, Dex +7
Adult Green: Str +6, Dex +6, Wis +7
Adult White: Dex +5, Str +6, Wis +6, Cha(!) +6

So for adult dragons in specific Intelligence is always their worst save, and then in four out of five cases Dexterity is their second worst save and in one case it's one point higher. Their wisdom save is within one point of their strength save at the adult size category and averages at exactly the same. Charisma is always second best and constitution best.

Even if we go down to young (i.e. large size) then the relationship is roughly the same. Int is the worst, then Dex in four out of five cases. Fighting it out for third best save is Strength and Wisdom (dragons have proficiency in wisdom saves but much higher raw strength). Charisma's second and Constitution first. Wyrmling and it changes - but my predictions were based in part on the size of the dragon and wyrmlings aren't large.

So, I predicted the top three saving throws (constitution, charisma, strength) as saves to avoid and what is in four out of five dragon categories the second weakest save as one to target based on pretty easily available information. The only thing I had no way of predicting is that all dragons are proficient in Wisdom and not Intelligence saves. Four out of six including the top two saves and the equal third to avoid. Which I don't think is bad.

Incidentally, this relationship (large creatures have high enough stats in Str and Con that they might as well be proficient even when they aren't and are almost impossible when they are) is an issue monks suffer from; Stunning Fist struggles at higher levels as it targets the save that big monsters pass.

 

[Dausuul]

Easy. The Lich is literally known for returning from literally anything while not being known for being easy to blast apart. You also know not to go to poison attacks against them (which covers a lot of con saves) because they are undead.

As for a dragon, those things are huge. You do not go for either Str saves or Con saves vs huge creatures, period. And you do go for dex saves again because they are huge and can't dodge. Dragons have a literal Frightful Presence so you don't go for charisma. So avoid: Str, Con, Cha.

My general heuristics for picking saves to target:

Dex is almost always a winner against Gargantuan monsters, and often works well on Huge ones. Int typically does well against anything that isn't a "wizard-like" or "psion-like" spellcaster (e.g., liches or mind flayers). All else being equal, those are my two preferred saves to target.

Against physically unimpressive caster types, Str is usually the weakest save, but most of the spells that target Str don't do a whole lot to a caster. Wis and Cha are dicey--they are often weak points, especially against noncasters, but sometimes a monster will have a rocking Cha or Wis save for no apparent reason. (On the other hand, Wis and Cha spells tend to have the nastiest effects on a failed save, so it can be worth the gamble.)

Con is just a bad save to target. If you have a really vicious spell that targets Con, and the target doesn't look big or tough, you can try it, but a lot of stuff has good Con saves that you wouldn't expect to. If the target does look big or tough, forget about it. And don't throw Con saves at undead, either; most undead have sturdy Con, and even if they fail the save, half the time they don't care.

Of course, all of this is constrained by the spells you actually have on hand. If none of your spells look like good options against this foe, consider switching to buffs, battlefield control, or spells that make attack rolls.