Pathfinder 1E Are you a Pathfinder expert?

[Morrus]

EN World is looking for a reliable and expert Pathfinder expert to answer a "sage advice" style monthly column. It pays, but not much. An element of sarcasm preferred - answer and entertain at the same time. Very strong command of the English language required.

Post below. Make me want to pay you. Any strategy OK, as long as you don't ask me to follow links. Make it self contained. Don't make a spelling or grammatical error in your post.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I like to think that I'm something of an expert on the Pathfinder rules, but it still seems like every day I'm learning something new-- by which, of course, I mean to say that I'm spending every day reading them.

I'm not the kind of person who answers rules questions off-the-cuff. When I run into a rules question, I research: I look it up and I make sure it's right. I like to think that I have a talent for divining the Rules-as-Intended from the steaming entrails of the Rules-as-Written, and I can tell the difference between them. No matter how certain someone is of RAI, it's still House Rules-- neither good, nor bad, but also not official. When I give rules advice, I try to give both perspectives, and I label them clearly which is which. It's important to do so, because the only rules that matter are the rules you're actually playing with; when you ask a rules question, especially as a DM, you're not just asking for a technical explanation but for advice.

If you're looking for the Dear Abby of killing orc babies, you're looking in the right place. I'm not a rules lawyer, but I can tell you when you need to hire one.

 

[Thotas]

I'm not applying for the position. I'm throwing a question out for those who are; Morrus can compare your answers, as a test. (He may want you to pm him with answers to it? So you can't see the answers of those going before you? Up to him.) Because I've been wondering about something.

What happens to Domain spells that have been Metamagicked? I'm assuming they would fill a higher domain level slot, but the rules as written kind of imply that only the two "normal" spell options from the domains are supposed to go in there. But if that's so, it would mean that domain spells can't have meta-magic applied to them. Obviously, this is really only important in those cases where having the domain is the only way the spell is available to the character. But anyway ... allowed, forbidden, or GM's call?

 

[TarionzCousin]

I nominate [MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION].

At least, I summon him here so he may apply if he so wishes.

 

[Morrus]

I'm not applying for the position. I'm throwing a question out for those who are; Morrus can compare your answers, as a test.

What a great idea! If anyone wants to have a stab at answering the question, that would give an excellent insight into how you'd handle the actual column.


Good thinking, [MENTION=18974]Thotas[/MENTION]!

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm not applying for the position. I'm throwing a question out for those who are; Morrus can compare your answers, as a test. (He may want you to pm him with answers to it? So you can't see the answers of those going before you? Up to him.) Because I've been wondering about something.

Thank you, Thotas. I had been hoping to catch an example question, and this is a good one to start off.

What happens to Domain spells that have been Metamagicked? I'm assuming they would fill a higher domain level slot, but the rules as written kind of imply that only the two "normal" spell options from the domains are supposed to go in there. But if that's so, it would mean that domain spells can't have meta-magic applied to them. Obviously, this is really only important in those cases where having the domain is the only way the spell is available to the character. But anyway ... allowed, forbidden, or GM's call?

It's times like this that I'm thankful for the weird little voice in the back of my head-- the one that nags me until I check my car keys, the one that won't let me sleep until I've checked the oven for ninja assassins, and the one that doesn't let me answer questions with "well, duh".

Because, as it turns out, while it seems inconceivable to me that a Cleric could not apply metamagic feats to her Domain slots it turns out that's almost what the rules say. Key word here is "almost".

A quick perusal of the rules in question gives us this, from the PFSRD:

A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. Domain spells cannot be used to cast spells spontaneously.

A quick check of the printed text itself (mine's from the second printing) shows that the wording is identical, as is the wording from another highly popular-- but utterly irrelevant-- fantasy roleplaying game.

"Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot."

It's easy to read that as "each day, a cleric can prepare one of the two spells from her domains in that slot", but that isn't what it says. "One of the spells from her two domains" would also include all of the other spells from her two domains, and the rule itself doesn't say anything about the level of the spell. By RAW, you can prepare lower level Domain spells in those slots, including lower level Domain spells that have been modified by metamagic feats.

I love it when the rules actually say what they should say, even though this would have been the perfect opportunity to show off my "this is house rules" editorial voice.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Oh, and I owe TarionzCousin XP for suggesting we get some competition in here-- unfortunately, I just gave him some for something else.

 

[Alzrius]

What happens to Domain spells that have been Metamagicked? I'm assuming they would fill a higher domain level slot, but the rules as written kind of imply that only the two "normal" spell options from the domains are supposed to go in there. But if that's so, it would mean that domain spells can't have meta-magic applied to them. Obviously, this is really only important in those cases where having the domain is the only way the spell is available to the character. But anyway ... allowed, forbidden, or GM's call?

In addition to being a superb off-hand light weapon, Occam's razor is oftentimes the best guideline when dealing with gray areas that arise within the Pathfinder rules - that the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct.

Let's look at the rule regarding preparing clerical domain spells. It states:

A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.

Notice that there's no prohibition regarding modifying the domain spells prepared in these slots. So long as the spell in the domain spell slot is from one of the cleric's two domain spell lists, it can be prepared using all of the normal rules regarding spell preparation. Note that this holds true for druids that select a domain via their Nature Bond class ability as well, with the sole difference that they have only a single domain to fill their domain spell slots from.

A cleric can thus prepare a domain spell with a metamagic feat in an appropriately higher-level domain spell slot.

[In case it wasn't understood, this is my throwing my hat in the ring for the position.]

 

[Glade Riven]

Spell check one of my posts on a forum? Okay, fine; if I have to. I guess.

I am a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants dungeon master with a high reading comprehension and the ability to quickly track down various minutia in the rules. “Wit” may be at times a tall order, yet sarcasm comes easily enough. I do have a little bit of experience copy writing (as in, writing copy for publication) and a full fledged degree in bull (specifically BFA Graphic Design). I actually understand the point of the monk class and do not want to rebuild it into something overpower.

One project of mine is a Pathfinder Compatible campaign setting. On the odd chance that I get the job, I will not be pimping it in the column. Well, at least I won't be pimping it in the column without asking permission. I will pimp it in the forum itself, since I use Enworld as a way to at least try to get feedback on the campaign setting. Here is an excerpt from a first draft:
[sblock]Siglund
Forsaken of the Light

For centuries they fought for Irkusk, along side the dwarven legions to protect their home from the drow menace. Betrayed by one of the legion when he let the drow pass through the Frostwall unhindered, the armies of Siglund turned their backs on their dwarven overlords and sought dark powers themselves in order to fight back.

Siglund is ruled by the twelve Lords of Night, a council of vampires that maintain strict control over the country. They in turn have sired dhampir offspring. Most under their rule are mortals (typically human), but each mortal is enlisted in the army for the duration of their afterlife. Undead warriors protect Siglund from the current Irkuskan Legion, holding them at bay.

Political intrigue constantly has the Twelve Lords at each other's throats, with each one attempting to gain power and influence over the others. Open bickering at the council table in the capital is rare, but the veneer of politeness is quite thin. Different Lords are being wooed by outside influences, with promises of support. Rumor has it that one or more Lord has ties to the new Irkuskan government, making them traitors to the rest. Legality and rule of law is often merely a public facade, with each noble having their own network of spies, assassins, and secret police.

Design Notes: Siglund is both a land of gothic horror and a hotbed of some of the deadliest political intrigue. It is a great place for either a classic Slay-The-Vampire campaign, or a more modern mix of forbidden romance and twisted politics. Either or both make great options for players and game masters[/sblock]
To answer an example question, I pulled one from the forum without reading the responses in the thread. Pielorinho asked, “I cast a minor image of a wall. An enemy makes his spellcraft check and walks right through it. I use my wand to create a minor image. Does the enemy get a spellcraft check? (I don't think so, since it's a spell trigger item, but figure I should check).”

Answer: If the enemy sees the spell being cast and is trained in the skill, he does get a spellcraft check. The Pathfinder Core Rulebook chapter on skills does not indicate that there is a difference between whether or not a spell is cast by a spell caster or by a spell trigger item. If the enemy did not see the spell being cast, then the enemy only receives a will save as per the spell's description.

At the table, this could lead to an interesting event where the spellcraft check succeeded, but the will save failed. “I know what this is, but it still scares me!”

 

[gdmcbride]

What happens to Domain spells that have been Metamagicked?

The Rules-As-Written answer is straightforward enough. Yes, if you’ve got the metamagic feat, the appropriate spell and the spell slot, your pyromaniac fire cleric can use a 5th level domain slot to store an empowered fireball instead of fire shield.

But the heart of the question is not mechanical, my disciple of the flame unquenchable. Oh, no. This question is theological. Domain spells are a divine gift. The fire god gave you that fireball. He gave you this miracle to bring his gospel of fiery boom to the world.

And did you say thank you? Did you say, “O great and powerful fire god, thank you for showing me the truth inside the flame?” No. You just had to screw around with the deity’s pure gift of conflagrant communion and turn it into something ... else.

And metamagic can make that fireball into something really different. At least the empowered feat is only more boom. How about making the fireball ghostly (via ectoplasmic spell)? Or making the spell inflict only non-lethal damage (via merciful spell)? Or, heresy of heresies, how about turning the fireball into an iceball (via elemental spell)?

To that I would definitely say ‘no’. That, my acolyte of ashes, violates the divine will of his Perpetual Pyroclastic Preponderance. The fire god is not amused by your meddling, mortal. Now you must pass through the Seven Fires of Forgiveness.

Prepare yourself for purity.

And about myself:

Gary McBride attended his first gaming con in 1984 as a wide-eyed lad of twelve. The experience affected him and since he has walked the way of the geek. In 1999, he received his first professional writing credit and has since gone on to work on Warhammer Fantasy, Earthdawn and other more obscure RPG entities. Now, he is the owner, lead designer, accountant and janitor for Fire Mountain Games, a publisher of Pathfinder compatible adventures. When not shackled to a computer, Gary listens to too-loud music, sips single malt scotch and travels as much as he can. And even though now husband to an astonishingly patient gamer-doctor and father to a five year old self-rescuing princess, he remains that wide-eyed lad boldly assaulting a monster haunted keep on some distant, dreamscape borderland.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games