D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

[Lyxen]

"Well made" only because there were literally no alternatives, which you had literally just dismissed as being a reason to ignore Pathfinder's popularity.

Actually, there were alternatives, everquest might have been the first 3D (and Ultima Online was really successful before), but asheron's call came right after in the same year, and the next generation came in less than 2 years later. So no comparison here.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Our group has a union. We get 2 fifteen minute and one half-hour short rest per day. If a wandering encounter lengthens our day or Disturbs any of our rests, we get overtime.

 

[Lyxen]

What are you talking about? Pathfinder 2e has a much shorter lifespan than 5e and is already wormed up to being the second most popular system used which is impressive for any system.

And remind how far it is in terms of popularity ? And no, it's not impressive at all, 5e put D&D back in first place in what, months ?

Not to mention the majority of 5e popularity has nothing to do with the system but their ability to capitalize on multimedia and social media thanks to having the backing of a large corporation backing it.

There is exactly zero proof of this. For me, in addition to the inherent quality of the game (today, if something is of low quality, it's shot down immediately by popular social media anyway, and whatever a corporation might do counts for nothing) the main difference is in the social media and the fact that D&D is incredibly more accessible, again an incredible inherent asset. That makes starting is way easier, and it's much easier to have shows like Critical Role showing good stories rather than honestly extremely long boring hours just managing one combat (I'm not saying that it's inherently boring, people who like spending hours in combat in a TTRPG obviously don't find it boring, but it's really boring to watch when you're not the one playing it).

It's system is the most compatible with entertainment based on streaming or podcasting the gameplay due to its quick action resolution. That was not an unintentional in design. They saw a huge potential market and they capitalize on it.

Yes, this is what you call quality, satisfying the customers. If 5e had been really a poor game, then it would not have worked that well.

The levels of sales for one to be considered a success isn't directly comparable to the other. Either company is going to release much hard data on their sales because they don't have to but I doubt Paizo is at any risk of going under because the one true system has been created.

Who is speaking about "one true system" here ? Certainly not me.

 

[Stoutstien]

Yea I'm done.

For those who actually want to run good games with player engagement that is beyond the surface then I suggest finding ways to use the rest system, or lack thereof, as a place where you can add reward as much as place for potential loss. Party decides to push on with half resources instead of resting? adding some extra exp on those encounters is quick and dirty but is always available.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The question: Why does a single combat favor the wizard?

Let's assume the warlock does not use up slots until the combat starts. They resolve the combat, then the warlock can rest and cast their highest level spells again, continuing the story progression without having to wait anywhere from 8 to 16 hours before they can cast their high-level spells again.

That is assuming the warlock has the right spell for the job. Both the wizard’s much larger repertoire and the fact that they prepare more spells per day means that they are much more likely to impact the combat.

And that’s not even speaking of non-combat challenges where versatility is an even greater advantage.

 

[FrozenNorth]

That's true. But that's also The assumption. The one-combat day assumes that after the combat, another one won't occur until the next day.

Otherwise, that wizard/sorcerer/Paladin will have significantly less resources as well.

What would this assumption look like in practice? The DM telling the players that for a part of the campaign, there will only be one encounter per day?

I think the more realistic assumption is the one where the situation suggests that there will be one encounter per day (such as a long journey), but there is no guarantee that that is the case.

Having run the latter type quite often, my experience is that the warlock will leave something in reserve. This is the case even in a one-encounter day where the DM may stagger the arrival of the monsters so the characters may blow their big guns before the end of the encounter.

 

[Asisreo]

Also, I see the wizard brought up often and I believe that I may have mentioned them as well, but upon reflection I think the wizard is irrelevant.

The wizard isn't a warlock replacement or vice-versa. Their playstyles and approaches to adventures are too different to be properly compared.

Even a warlock can be completely different considering their decision points. I have no problem creating a warlock with a focus only on combat while another can be purely focused on exploration and another purely social. And I can mix in-between. Heck, even combat-focused Warlocks can vary considerably.

A wizard, no matter what they choose, is best as a generalist. No matter how specialized they try to be, they either hurt their own strengths or become generalists anyways.

So in a one-combat day, a wizard may or may not have the necessary spells to decimate the encounter, but a combat-focused warlock is more reliable when the wizard doesn't have an answer, quite like a martial.

In contrast, a wizard may or may not have the necessary slots to solve an out-of-combat encounter, but a utility warlock can either do it more efficiently at-will, like using Disguise Self or Levitate, or do things a wizard couldn't possibly do like Gaze of Two Minds or summon Imps/Faeries/Psuedodragons as familiars.

So my point is: even on those days, a warlock is stronger with less combat encounters rather than more even without their rest patterns because even if they can't guarantee their short rests, they can guarantee they'll be in situations where their at-will utility can be useful.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Do you guys not track spell slots?

Only on days with encounters

Wouldn't the wizard's and Sorcerers be very strong if they can cast their spells willy-nilly?

Who's letting them?

And by track, I don't necessarily mean going by downtime one day at a time, I just mean verifying that what they want to do is possible.

Well sure, the fighter doesn't suddenly get casting. But they can still do a bunch of downtime stuff.

Sorta like "tracking" gold. Except it replenishes every day.

Also, stuff does happen during downtime, right? Like personal stuff where a personal rival to a character appears or the sick family member's conditions are getting worse. I can't imagine making adventuring hooks without them outside of the initial beginner adventure.

If there are challenges being overcome, then it's not downtime.

So, if I was a warlock and I said "I'm going to keep communications with the party as well as the patron everyday by casting Dream overnight then I'll constantly work on crafting a material component for Scrying so that I can monitor what my rival is doing." Would you just say no? I can't think of a reason why something like this wouldn't be powerful, impactful, and still RAW.

Yeah, that would be fine. But I'd let a wizard with sending do the same.

And by powerful, I don't mean overpowered. there's tradeoffs to this, but surely it's helpful before the adventure truly kicks off, right?

 

[Asisreo]

If there are challenges being overcome, then it's not downtime.

Whoa, what? Do the individual characters' conflicts get treated as full adventures? Or is everything mundane and calm before the adventure?

Yeah, that would be fine. But I'd let a wizard with sending do the same.

That's what I mean by "letting the wizard cast willy-nilly. If they have the slots, that's fine. But if they're level 5, the warlock can sending pretty much indefinitely during downtime but the wizard can only do it twice a day.

 

[tetrasodium]

Only on days with encounters

Who's letting them?

Well sure, the fighter doesn't suddenly get casting. But they can still do a bunch of downtime stuff.

If there are challenges being overcome, then it's not downtime.

Yeah, that would be fine. But I'd let a wizard with sending do the same.

The example came up in discussion of always needing extremely tight doom clocks to restrict short rests. Do all of your PC side plots also come with doom clocks as strict as the last five world ending apocalypse engines, or do short rest classes just pinky swear not to short rest every fight or two just because there isn't a doomclock attached to "filler" side plots that don't involve the end of the world?