ARGH! Sense Motive is NOT frigging mind reading!

[BSF]

From the 3.5 SRD

SENSE MOTIVE (WIS)
Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.

Task Sense Motive DC
Hunch 20
Sense enchantment 25 or 15
Discern secret message Varies

Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.

Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

Discern Secret Message: You may use Sense Motive to detect that a hidden message is being transmitted via the Bluff skill. In this case, your Sense Motive check is opposed by the Bluff check of the character transmitting the message. For each piece of information relating to the message that you are missing, you take a –2 penalty on your Sense Motive check. If you succeed by 4 or less, you know that something hidden is being communicated, but you can’t learn anything specific about its content. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you intercept and understand the message. If you fail by 4 or less, you don’t detect any hidden communication. If you fail by 5 or more, you infer some false information.

Action: Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you.

Try Again: No, though you may make a Sense Motive check for each Bluff check made against you.

Special: A ranger gains a bonus on Sense Motive checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.

If you have the Negotiator feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

From what I am seeing, the PCs should be able to get a decent feel about whether something is on the up and up, or if something isn't as straightforward and honest as it is being presented.


To use sfedi's example of the neutral officer, perhaps the officer is even presenting all the information as honestly as he knows it, but he despises the mercenary nature of adventurers. He has been ordered to bring in outside assistance and hates it, but he is doing his job as he was told to. The PCs might sense that he is holding something back from them. In this case, it could be the venom he would usually address mercenaries with.

If you are generous, you could even tell the PCs that "the officer doesn't seem to like you". But you don't have to.

I would generally try to describe it in more detail.

"The officer sharing the information with you seems unusually terse. He is also using some very closed body language. You get the sense that maybe he doesn't like this part of his job. But he seems trustworthy enough."

That leaves it up to the PCs to pursue why the officer might not be happy. Maybe they find out he hates adventurers and was actually covering (bluffing) his feelings very well. Maybe they find out that he is usually very affable, but somebody up the chaing of command doesn't want the PCs to succeed, so the officer is hamstrung by orders on what he can share.

As an addendum, if the PCs have any reason to be familiar with the NPC, then I tend to give more information. Just as you might be familiar with your friends' body language, the PCs might be familiar with the NPC's body language.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

Rule 1) Player's don't ask for sense motive checks - they get a SM check by writing a note with a question to the DM.

Rule 2) The SM check must be in relation to a question that the DM can answer with Y/N or Maybe.

Your thoughts?

Excellent suggestions! I especially like the "Y/N or Maybe" answer thing. Rather than have players ask, "What kind of ulterior motive do I sense from him?" and that kind of thing.

One houserule I've used in the past is that I, as DM, will *always* ask for skill checks when appropriate, rather than having characters try to "use X or Y skill" as if they were superpowers.

 

[Piratecat]

We haven't found it to be a problem. When people sense motive, I've been answering with statements like "You don't think he's lying" or "Based on how his eyes are flickering, you're pretty sure he's hiding something." If they make the check by a large amount, I might say "You're almost positive that he's lying through his teeth; his voice just has that sound to it." If they then ask what he's lying about, I tell them to figure it out for themselves.

Interestingly enough, ever since my 19th lvl diviner developed an infallible truth spell, I've been finding that bad guys telling the absolute truth have a bad tendency to freak out the PCs.

 

[was]

PC: I try to sense motive.
DM: Go ahead and roll.
DM Option 1 (success):
a.) You think he might be hiding something from you.
b.) You think he's telling the truth.
DM Option 2 (failure): You have no idea whether he's telling the truth or not.
-This is the way we do it. I don't know if it's correct, but it works for us.

 

[vulcan_idic]

Elementary, my dear Watson

While Sense Motive is *not* mind reading, an astute observer of humans and human nature can deduce startling things about what we are thinking. At a high level a character with max ranks in Sense Motive and high Intelligence and Wisdom, such as the world reknowned Sherlock Holmes should have rather startling insights into what went on in a conversation under the surface - what may have meant more, what might have said volumes by remaining unsaid, and so forth.

 

[Plane Sailing]

While Sense Motive is *not* mind reading, an astute observer of humans and human nature can deduce startling things about what we are thinking.

c.f. Derren Brown, a very popular 'psychological magician' in the UK at present

http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

Watching him use these principles to perform tricks is majorly spooky

 

[Rashak Mani]

I just remind my DM all the time that I have a high sense motive and I expect him to roll it... still he keeps complaining.

 

[shilsen]

Whenever PCs use sense motive, remember to use the words, "As far as you can tell..." and then smile. That's all you need

 

[Nail]

Player's Note: "Is this guy overcharging us? [10gp seems a little pricey for a couple of cloth sacks]
DM's written response: "Maybe"

That sounds more like an "appraise" check actually.

Perhaps if the question was: "Is this guy acting honestly, while selling us a cloth sack?"

Still, the "note idea" seems like a good one.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

That sounds more like an "appraise" check actually.

Perhaps if the question was: "Is this guy acting honestly, while selling us a cloth sack?"

Still, the "note idea" seems like a good one.

Rereading it back, it does sound a little like an appraise check.
However, I suppose it's still valid, you are trying to work out whether he is overcharging you based upon the vendors actions, demeanor and presentation more so than any appraisal of the actual item.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise