Aristocrat as a PC class

gpetruc

First Post
Aristocrat as a PC class

Why we need it
There are many reasons to need a PC class suitable for aristocracy or similar educated knights. There are many examples in fantasy novels: consider for instance those from King Arthur myths, or the nobles from Middle Earth like Aragorn, Faramir, Boromir; they are definitely not just fighters with their 2 skill points and a miserable class skill lists.
  • At the current state of D&D (v3.5.2) classes if you want a character with some knowledge and social skills you must take at least some levels in Bard, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard or Sorcerer; none of these class fit the archetype.
  • The aristocrat NPC class is not bad, but it is a bit underpowered compared to PC classes and has some problems with the skill list (it has Spot, Listen and Survival as class skills which is at least questionable).
  • The Noble class from Dragonlance again does not fit perfectly for both the Inspire and Favour abilities.
  • I don’t want a prestige class: the son of a prince must be able to start as a first level aristocrat.

The ingredients: what gives us a good aristocrat
  • skills: at least social skills, knowledge, arts, some physical training and of course riding
  • martial training: a good quality martial training, armoured fighting, more focus on finesse and quality fighting than raw power
  • customization: while Paladins could be all equal to each other, aristocrats should have more freedom in deciding their abilities

Going for the rules:
I’m trying to avoid “custom” class abilities, so I’ll focus mostly on the base five elements: attack bonus, saves, hit die, skills and feats.
The options that we have are:
  • BAB: either full fighter or 3/4 as most of the non fighting classes
  • HD: either d10 or d8, most likely the lesser one
  • Skills: we want 4 skill points (6 is probably too much). We should try to keep off the class skill list the main strengths of other classes, and so surely no Spot and Survival, no thievery skills: if a knight wants to be good in these he can of course get cross class ranks and some skill feat
  • Feats: bonus feats offer a simple way of creating a class and the players like them as it gives them more options. We still don’t want to overshadow the fighter with many combat oriented feats.
  • Saves: reflex is surely bad, but it isn’t obvious if we want both will and fortitude good.
Giving some sort of bardic knowledge could be interesting too, but I’m not sure

My first draft of PC Aristocrat rules
Base attack bonus: +1/level (full fighter)
Hit die: d8
Weapons and armor: martial weapons and heavy armor, but of course no tower shield.
Skills: (4 skill points/level) Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language and Swim (Str).
Saves: Fortitude and Will good
Bonus feats: at level 2,5,8,11,14,17,20. The list includes any feat that gives bonuses to skills or saves, and some combat feats: Combat Expertise (Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip), Dodge (Mobility), Point Blank Shot (Far Shot), Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat (Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample,), Quickdraw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
Other class features:
Leadership: bonus Leadership feat at level 7, can be taken more than once but you only gain additional followers and not cohorts.
Bonus starting equipment: if you pick the aristocrat as your first class you get more starting gold (800 gp ?) but it can be spent only on ordinary or masterwork equipment (no magic, no alchemy, …) and you can’t save more than few of that gold (2d4 x 10 gp).
(This lets them start with a slightly better armor, or a masterwork sword, or a warhorse; it will be offset very soon and it is mostly for flavour)
Other considerations:
Starting as aristocrat does not mean you are that rich or powerful (if you are not the first born child of a small noble, for example, or you are an ordinary youth raised and trained by some knightly order).
There are no multi classing restrictions: you can start as a bare fighter and later achieve a betters social status (for example after some successful quest) and go for the aristocrat class, you can split levels between fighter and aristocrat if you want a more martial training but still some skills, and so on.

Flavour:
Now finally your knight can dismount from his warhorse, sheathe his sword and:
  • parley with the messengers from the neighbouring prince to decide terms for a military alliance
  • discuss of heraldry and poetry with the members of the court
  • participate to banquets and dances when the big evil has been killed
So it seems it can only enrich the flavour of the game

Roles:
It does definitely stole the standard fighter role: he can’t slaughter hordes of orcs by himself fighting with a bastard sword in one hand and a waraxe in the other. He will never be “the best blade of the world”.
At the command of an army there would probably be both an aristocrat, which can parley with diplomats and kings, and a fighter, which is better at leading the army in the real combat.

Balance:
Compared to fighter: less HD, 3 less feats and a much more restricted list of feats (no Power Attack chain, no improved critical, no rapid shot, …), lose weapon specialization, greater weapon focus and specialization; more knowledge, social skills; good will save
Compared to ranger: different skill set without the almighty Spot, 2 less skill points, swapped good reflex for will, no spells, 3 more feats but no favoured enemy (a total of +18 split between enemies, on many skills and combat damage) and woodland skills
Compared to paladin: well, either you are a paladin or you aren’t; anyway less HD, better base saves (but no Divine Grace), lose lay on hands, smite, turning (!), spells in exchange for 8 feats, two more skill points and some more skills.
Compared to bard: better BAB and HD, more feats, no spells (important for a Bard), no music, less skills (-2 skill points no Listen, Move Silently, Hide, Tumble)
Compared to cleric: better BAB, martial weapons, two more skill points and a slightly better list, some bonus feats in exchange for spells up to 9th level and spontaneous cast healing.
In the end it seems balanced to me.
If I have to drop something I’d probably drop the fortitude save or one feat; if I have to gain something then it would be either bardic knowledge, one more feat (alas the Landlord from the Stronghold Builder’s Guidebook is still out of the SRD), a slightly larger bonus feat list, or some bonuses to leadership score for what matters followers.


Any feedback is greatly appreciated

Giovanni

Edit: removed Search from class skills (thanks Nifft)
 
Last edited:

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
IMC, Aristocrat grants:
1) Survivability -- heavy armor, all good saves, Spot and Listen
2) Great Social Skills -- 6 sp/level, Sense Motive and all other social skills
3) Not a Fighter -- no bonus Feats, 3/4 BAB
4) Not a Rogue or Ranger -- no stealth, no Search
5) Not a worker -- no Profession or Craft, but all Knowlege and Perform

See it here:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml

-- N
 

JBowtie

First Post
If you have access to Rokugan, you'll find the Courtier class a very well thought out class of this nature. Instead of bonus feats, they get a fair number of social abilities chosen from a list.
 

gpetruc

First Post
Ok, I probably was taken wrong: I'm not looking for a skill based aristocrat (such as the Noble classes from Dragonlace), but a noble knight like the many ones you find in King Arthur saga (or many works from Tolkien, by the way).
I want one that is able to fight well, to lead an army or fight at a tournament, not someone who focuses on intrigue and smooth talk; it is definitely not a politician.
Consider for example Lancelot (or a prince of the Noldor elves): they definitely don't live on intrigue or politics, but they are not plain fighters (they are learned and well mannered people) nor paladins. They ares something that is missing in D&D and that I want to recreate

There could be of course different settings where institutions are more solid and a noble based mostly on skills, favours, contacts and similar abilities does the best. I don't know Rokugan, but here in the boards I've seen some sort of noble class based on Rokugan sources and it was not in the direction I am going (it had d6, bad BAB and lots of skills and so on)

For what matters the Search I was not sure about it, I will remove it. But I still don't think that they need a good reflex save; there isn't much honor in dodging a fireball, by the way, it is something for a rogue but not a knight.

To avoid confusion let's change names, then. Let's call this class Knight (or Chevalier ?) and the skill-based, less fighting one either Noble or Courtier.

Apart from this issue, what else do you think ?

Giovanni
 

Elephant

First Post
I think a Noble/Courtier class is preferable - it gets you the skill-based aristocrat (single-classed) AND the knight (multiclass with fighter). IMO, the knight concept doesn't require a separate base class.
 


Angel Tarragon

Dawn Dragon
Elephant said:
I think a Noble/Courtier class is preferable - it gets you the skill-based aristocrat (single-classed) AND the knight (multiclass with fighter). IMO, the knight concept doesn't require a separate base class.

That is unless you prefer to use the Knight class from Relics & Rituals: Excalibur. I believe it fits in quite nicely with the concept that you are referring to.
 

Khaalis

Adventurer
Just to add my $0.02 worth here...

1) I like the basic concept of the class though I dont think it really requires its own base class unless that is your personal taste. I personally think that style of aristocrat you are aiming at can be made by simply tweaking the Fighter class with the necessary skill changes. Otherwise I think it looks fine though I would personally go Intermediate BAB and less "Feats" in preference of specific "aristocratic" abilities. JMHO. YMMV.

2) As for 3rd party sources, another fantastic resource not yet mentioned is the Noble's Handbook by Green Ronin with its base Noble class which also includes the trues aspect of Noble breeding. It also includes the PrC additions that allow a specialized path in the endeavors of most nobles such as the Commander, Master Diplomat, Lord Knight, and Mastermind.
 


argo

First Post
At a glance your class seems balanced if not exactly exciting. Basically you trade a couple of fighter feats for a good Will and a few HP for some more skill points. I could defanetly see building a character with this class depending on what I wanted to do (though maybe you should allow a few more fighter feats on the bonus feat list, at least the power attack chain (kinghts learn the broadsword and poleaxe) and the twf chain (dandy nobles learn the rapier and muan gauche) ).

If you want a more martial aristocrat then absouetly stay away from the OA courtier: that class can be powerfull but it is totally dedicated to social games at an imperial court.

Might I also suggest you take a look at the Noble class from the Conan RPG? It gets some "social abilities" of the call in a favor sort and some abilites for inspiring troops but it is still a good martial class. It gets: 3/4 bab, d8 HD and martial weapons and heavy armor but the key is the classes "special regional feature" which it gets at levels 2, 7, 12 and 18. The regional feature is a +1 (then +2, +3, +4) to a few skills and such but each region also includes a regional weapon and the bonus applies to attack rolls as well, Example: Hyrkanian noble gets
+1 attack rolls with Hyrkanian longbow, scimitar and tulwar
+1 bonus to Intimidate and Ride checks
And that stacks each time he gets the class feature, meaning that a noble wielding his regional weapon will be one itterative attack behind the fighter but will have an attack bonus equall or only one point behind. Very nice IMHO.

Hope that helps.
 

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