Armies of the Abyss

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Erik:

I thought the book was very good overall (about on par with Legions of Hell), but had two big problems with it:

1) I disliked the qlippoths (the cataboligne demons in Dragon #295 were more interesting and creepier looking, if even more vaguely defined as a race than the qlippoth).

2) While I liked the concept of the Thaumaturge class, the execution was mangled so badly as to be a waste of space that would have been better served by including the Abyssal Dragon. Sorry to be so harsh, but the class doesn't work, even on an NPC only level. The corruption tables might be useful with some tweaking as a baseline for Lankhmar Black Wizard penalties... The feats are good but must not force additional corruptions on the character choosing them. You would be better off being a cleric or cleric/sorcerer than a thaumaturge as it is currently written, which is a shame, as I had high hopes for this class.

Now to the praise: I thought you did an EXCELLENT job on defining the motives, interests and cults of the various demon princes, making them much more understandable (and even sympathetic in some cases) than any previous game treatment. They seem less like inscrutable monsters and more like "real people."

Thanks for putting in the sneaky stuff on the classic princes, too, BTW, so we're not "in the dark" on these guys domains. Too bad we couldn't have gotten more details, but that's the way of IP/PI laws, LOL.

Most of the new demons were very cool, especially the incubus. The succubus should have corresponding powers, IMO, otherwise they're just eye candy with no real "teeth."

The new domains and spells were fun and more than I expected.

So, I'm pleased with my purchase overall, and despite some rough edges (Legions had some too), Armies of the Abyss is a sourcebook I gladly endorse and recommend.

 

[Psion]

Now to the praise: I thought you did an EXCELLENT job on defining the motives, interests and cults of the various demon princes, making them much more understandable (and even sympathetic in some cases) than any previous game treatment.

Yeah, that was a cool touch. I mean, they are still the same despicably evil demons you know and hate, but they have their own little foibles that makes them not quite the unthinking evil butchers that one could have easily made them into -- AKA the "easy route".

 

[Erik Mona]

Well, I'm glad people are enjoying the book, despite what most people seem to consider a lackluster class. I designed the Thaumaturge (and a lot of the demon princes, honestly) based on the types of people who routinely made pacts with demons in real world history. These are for the most part scholars, folks who almost always had a familiar, and who didn't really have anything to do with "switching out" healing spells or turning undead.

As a result I may have made them too weak, but I thought the constant struggle between getting more and more corrupt and eventually losing your primary casting ability score made for an interesting moral struggle. I also suspected anyone playing a thaumaturge would mess around with some of the feats, particularly Influence Chaos Warp, which pretty much gets you out of any unplesantness that would lower your Charisma. I personally would not play a thaumaturge without that feat. If one assumes you have some control over your corruptions, it's not too difficult to imagine choosing stuff like Eyes of Fire, No Corruption, or Forked Tongue over stuff like Milky Eye, Splotchy Skin, or Raspy Voice. This becomes, in my opinion, a better strategy once you get to the greater corruptions. Bestial Snout, Third Eye, Scaly Skin, or Appetite Loss are really quite good.

There's a pretty healthy design contingent that would see the removal of any kind of random dice rolling as an affront to play balance. Since the thaumaturge is so obsessed with chaos, I thought a little randomness would be appropriate. That said, I completely understand people preferring to just use clerics, and I think it's worth pointing out that the bulk of the material on demon princes is every bit as applicable to that core class as it is to the one I made up.

As for the motivations of various cults. . . I discovered that the main reason demons have the bloodthirsty "I'll eat anything that moves" reputation is because they were given that reputation during the middle ages. Though seldom completely "good" in the D&D sense of the word, I figured that the demonic philosophies expressed in Armies would have to make a certain amount of sense to a just-short-of-rational human being, or else they would become cartoonish. I didn't feel like designing a book of cartoons.

I don't believe that most "evil" characters imagine themselves to be evil, and so I preferred to portray the evil in Armies of the Abyss as extremely pragmatic or self-interested, rather than bloodthirsty. That said, the demon prince Shax is pretty revolting in the traditional sense of "scary" demons. He's also in the minority, as the others are, if I did my job correctly, a good deal more subtle.

--Erik

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Erik:

I recently bought Armies of the Abyss over the weekend, and I have read it through quite thoroughly. I have enjoyed it, and I think it is an excellent product! While I can understand the criticisms of the Thaumaturge Class, I think that the "concept" that you established in the writing makes it certainly worth *my* while to adjust and add to it to make it fit into my campaign world. At the very least, the class provides some vivid inspiration! The rest of the beautiful book is simply top-notch! I also happen to really like the Qclippoth race of demons. They are an interesting element to add to Abyssal politics! Congradulations on such fine and excellent work!

On a scale of 1-10, I would rate Armies of the Abyss a solid 9. The price is also very reasonable. Thankyou!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Erik Mona]

You're welcome, Shark.

If you enjoyed my ideas, I suggest checking out Forgotten Realms: Faiths & Pantheons, which comes out next month (or very shortly thereafter). It's loaded with some of the best ideas I could possibly manage at the time.

--Erik

 

[Zaukrie]

Erik

I just finished reading through Armies. I really enjoyed it. I think the role playing ideas in the Demon Prince sections are great. I may also use the Demon Princes as an alternate Pantheon that is attempting to infiltrate the Realms. My Realms aren't evolving the same way as cannon after the Gods' War.

My only (mild) disappointment is that I'd have liked to see more demons, and less of the other stuff, but I couldn't tell you what to cut. I enjoyed most of the rest of the stuff.

I look forward to Faiths...keep up the good work.

 

[baseballfury]

I like the thaumaturge. While reading over the class, I immediately had devious ideas for long term villains to torment my party with. I especially like the feats that make them better summoners. Great flavor, and very much in keeping with the source material.

Overall, great book and another winner for Green Ronin.

 

[Erik Mona]

Thanks for the positive feedback, folks.

If you've got questions about the book, I encourage you to post them to this thread, as I've been paying pretty close attention to it and will happily reply just as soon as I possibly can.

--Erik