Armies of The Ancient World

[Desdichado]

To all the naysayers out there, how much historical research have you really done? Sure, anyone can find some maverick that goes against the grain of conventional wisdom, but the arguments you're saying these historians are making are tautologies. "We don't think these armies could possibly have been that big. Therefore, ancient historians must have exaggerated by tremendous amounts: up to a factor of 10. Because of that, these numbers are overstated. Blah blah blah." Reminds me of when Gandalf is describing how Gollum repeated over and over to himself how the Ring was his Birthday present and therefore legitimate until he almost believed it himself. The fact of the matter is, most historians accept most of these numbers are relatively accurate.

Now, SHARK, as to the real purpose of your thread: I wonder how you have done it yourself? You post a lot of neat "thought-starters" but they really apply to your type of campaign. I personally don't prefer settings that have such ubiquitous magic, for instance, I like a more "pseudo-realistic" feel. And although world-spanning empires can be fun sometimes, I kinda like the small "hometown" feel of running a small hamlet, a trade city on the borderlands, or stuff like that. In fact, a reasonable sized city on the borderlands, with tensions between two empires, sorta like historical Dura-Europos would be really fun, while a setting right smack in Rome would probably be less interesting unless you can come up with some really exciting intrigue and the like.

But I have to wonder exactly how you're able to pull off military themes in your campaign. Unless your PCs are part of some kind of scouting organization for the military, all this stuff should be going on well in the background, if at all, I would suspect.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey there Joshua! You've been missed here recently!

Well, the thing is, I long ago designed my world, and the campaigns therein, to be big enough, and complex and flexible enough, to accomodate just about anything I or the crew is in the mood for.

For example, if the group is in a "Urban" mode, I have cities of easily over one million people, with everything a dynamic metropolis could hope to offer. There are nobles to be allied with and opposed; Dark cults to be uncovered, and destroyed; Insidious crime-gangs and ruthless mercantile guilds that plot and gather their hand to any number of criminal activities; There are struggling masses, grinding away in working class slums, giving rise to civil discontent and occasional riots and outbursts of rebellion and anarchy; There are avenues of infiltration for Drow Elves, Ratmen, and Umber Hulk migrations, all seeking to enslave and conquer. Thus, cities have lots of action going on for urban adventures.

In wilderness areas, there are the borders of the frontier, which need to be protected from invasion. My campaign is active and dynamic; Elves, while not as numerous as they once were, are on the rise; They are forming new communities and fortified cities in ancient lands long lost to the forces of Darkness. At the same time, the forces of Darkness, whether they be hordes of beastmen and monsters, who threaten to invade fringe provinces at any time, or formidable invasions of Hobgoblins, or Orcs, there is frequent military action. In the northern frontiers, there are also large confederations of enormous tribes of human barbarians. Some are allied, and some are ruthlessly expansionistic, and often send strong invasions into the Vallorean Empire. In the south, there is an array of ancient, sophisticated human kingdoms and empires, that at different times, have been enemies of Vallorea. Some are friends, while others are just as often trade competitors. From the west, there are amphibious invasions and seaborne attacks by Fomorians and other monsters to always be concerned about.

Oftentimes, one or more of the characters in the group are members of the Vallorean Legions on special assignment, or Knights, or Templars, and so on. They often come into positions where they are needed in some military capacity, or they have found themselves to be in a particular position, either physically, or socially, where they can not only get involved, but also make a difference.

The campaign is diverse and rich enough, for example, that you, as a player, could find yourself being from a border town somewhere on the back-side of an outlying province of the Vallorean Empire, living in total squallor that would make our own real-world 12th century Dark Ages town look like a resort! Very little magic, no Legions, no cool magical details, just mud, cold, tough pork, a few chicken eggs, and straw to sleep in. Sometimes the horses actually have it better!

All joking aside, though, I also like some more historical/traditional kind of environments, where the incidence of magic and the fantastic can be easily controlled, and even concealed to a large degree. I can allow players to play in and develop in such areas, if they like, and never see any dramatic changes to those conditionals. They own circumstances, personal prestige, and personal power may all change greatly, but the environmental conditionals of creatures, magic items, and fantastic opponents can remain largely unchanged. A very low-magic, low-fantasy environment can be maintained thusly.

However, should I or the group desire something more unusual and fantastic, that too, can seamlessly be accomodated!

Depending on the players social status and rank, as well as who they know, they can initially or ongoing, be simply a band of adventurers and mercenaries. Gradually, though, if they desire it, and if they work hard at it, and are aided by a bit of luck, they can rise to become renowned heroes of the land, great champions, even generals, or powerful nobles, with large lands and many different political, military, and economic concerns.

Thus, I personally have interests in, and even needs to develop and maintain fresh ideas of low-fantasy, gritty environments, as well as magic-rich, high-fantasy environments.

I hope I answered your questions! If not, feel free and I shall be happy to elaborate!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Rashak Mani]

The fact that Shark (and his group probably) are marine or ex marines helps set military themes....

Senta a Pua

 

[mythusmage]

Bump (just cuz).

 

[Alaric_Prympax]

Hey SHARK, I think someone has asked you this before but have you looked into getting your setting published. It sounds great. Although I haven't read the whole "Goning down the road to Hell" Thread (or whatever the name of it was) in the Story Hour forum I did read some of it and liked it. I just didn't have the time to read the whole thing, sorry. But as I said what I read I liked. It sounds as it you have quite a bit of detail for your world and would make a great publication. Just thought I throw that out there.

Btw, good threads and posts.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Alaric, thankyou!

I can't really say yet, but you may soon see some official work from me that you can purchase in your wonderful local gamestore! So, I wish to thankyou for your encouragement, as well as to say hang in there, for you might just get what you have asked for!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Tiefling]

To all the naysayers out there, how much historical research have you really done?

How much research have YOU done?

Sure, anyone can find some maverick that goes against the grain of conventional wisdom, but the arguments you're saying these historians are making are tautologies.

Explain how they are tautologies. I just can't spot the needless repetion in "The supply systems and infrastructure were not good enough to support such numbers and they were too big to simply live off pillage."

"We don't think these armies could possibly have been that big. Therefore, ancient historians must have exaggerated by tremendous amounts: up to a factor of 10. Because of that, these numbers are overstated. Blah blah blah."

Despite the fact that you don't mention them, the reasons why some don't think that the armies were as big as ancient historians say are quite sound. So maybe you should come up with some actual counter-arguments rather than spewing petty ad hominems, eh Josh?

The fact of the matter is, most historians accept most of these numbers are relatively accurate.

Can you find some sort of poll of medieval historians on how accurate they think those numbers are? I'd like to see it.

Come back when you know how to debate.

 

[mmadsen]

Ever played any Birthright PBEMs? They are (or were- I don't know if there are any major ones still ongoing) pretty much what you describe. Quite fun, though the turnaround time is frequently a killer, as is DM burnout.

I'm sorry that I missed Birthright, back in the 2E days, but everything I hear about it fascinates me. Although it sounds like Birthright PCs were supposed to start as "blooded" natural leaders, it seems like the setting presented great rules for playing out higher-level characters, in a more typical campaign, who finally ascended to high rank.

 

[Desdichado]

Tiefling:
How much research have YOU done?

Quite a bit, actually.

Explain how they are tautologies. I just can't spot the needless repetion in "The supply systems and infrastructure were not good enough to support such numbers and they were too big to simply live off pillage."

How do I need to explain how they are tautologies? The definition of tautology is sufficient, I think. The supply systems and infrastructure of ancient armies is much less well known than the disposition of the armies themselves. Therefore, dismissing the numbers based on that assumption is not warranted (speaking generically, of course. In some specific instances that will not be true. However, in most of those instances, the numbers reported seem to match up fairly well: SHARK's Cannae being a notable example, as are most Viking sagas, Irish and Angle-Saxon Chronicles, etc.)

Despite the fact that you don't mention them, the reasons why some don't think that the armies were as big as ancient historians say are quite sound. So maybe you should come up with some actual counter-arguments rather than spewing petty ad hominems, eh Josh?

That's Joshua. Now, before you start tossing around fancy-schmancy terms, you probably ought to learn what they mean. At no point did I attack anyone personally, although I was quite disparaging on occasion about some insubstantiable arguments. You're big to jump on the defense of these "quite sound" arguments. In this thread so far, I have not yet seen one put forward, and in my opinion, they are not very sound and are not widely accepted in scholarly historical publications. Do you know what they are even?

Can you find some sort of poll of medieval historians on how accurate they think those numbers are? I'd like to see it.

It's fairly easy to judge the academic climate of ancient (NOTE: no one has discussed medieval historians to any great extent on this thread yet) history when your father is a professor of ancient history, you have a minor in ancient history and you read about half a dozen academic publications on ancient history on a regular basis. Since you are so inclined to bring "credentials" into the debate, which is an implicit ad hominem attack, by the way, I say to you put up or shut up. Show how you know so much more than I do, when I've consciously surrounded myself by the best scholarship one can find on the subject. The fact of the matter is, only someone out of touch with the climate of current scholarship still holds to those beliefs. Some decades ago, it was quite en vogue to disparage the ancient chronicles as wildly inaccurate and propogandistic. Now that independent archeological research has been done, confirmation through other texts and a host of other disciplines has been brought to bear, the climate has changed considerably. In general, most historic texts are believed to be relatively accurate unless there is a compelling reason to believe otherwise.

Come back when you know how to debate.

If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a brilliant touch of irony. Pretty pathetic.

 

[mmadsen]

The Ch'in Empire of China had huge armies, and they were heavily armoured, and there were regular regiments of archers, horse archers, lancers, and also sophisticated siege corps that marched with the armies on campaign. It is amazing that the Ch'in armies had sophisticated netwroks of spies, as well as a beurocracy, with regular mail, pay, and so on.

This reminds me that I wish Oriental Adventures (a)presented non-Japanese oriental cultures in more detail and (b) clearly stated which real cultures all the bits and pieces came from.