Armor As Damage Reduction

[Azure Trance]

I use this similar thread title to lure SonOfAPreacherMan here to see what he thinks. Last year, as a matter of fact, I recall SOAPM creating a similar thread on Armor as DR, though I don't recall if I volunteered the same information then as I will now.

In MGE's Stone & Steel they have a simple, optional system for armor to block your hits, not to dodge your hits. Your armor bonus will now be your DR, and be applied as such for all damage before it affects your character. Shields grant a 'true' armor bonus, since it does more to deflect the attack. For the con of being hit more often, they take less damage. There is also an added bit of optionally adding a defense bonus equivalent to your highest BAB to show your characters growing adeptness and not getting hit. The author warns that this will strongly favor fighters.

It's short, requires little modification, and I like it. What do you think, though? Am I perhaps missing some greater implication which will all of a sudden make this more of a headache then it's worth?

 

[CombatWombat51]

I use this similar thread title to lure SonOfAPreacherMan here to see what he thinks. Last year, as a matter of fact, I recall SOAPM creating a similar thread on Armor as DR, though I don't recall if I volunteered the same information then as I will now.

In MGE's Stone & Steel they have a simple, optional system for armor to block your hits, not to dodge your hits. Your armor bonus will now be your DR, and be applied as such for all damage before it affects your character. Shields grant a 'true' armor bonus, since it does more to deflect the attack. For the con of being hit more often, they take less damage. There is also an added bit of optionally adding a defense bonus equivalent to your highest BAB to show your characters growing adeptness and not getting hit. The author warns that this will strongly favor fighters.

It's short, requires little modification, and I like it. What do you think, though? Am I perhaps missing some greater implication which will all of a sudden make this more of a headache then it's worth?

The big problem is that characters with heavy armor (practically) can't be hurt by 'normal' foes. Town guard with a longsword and 13 Str? Hopeless. Rogue with rapier +2, 13 Str, and not getting sneak attack? Just as hopeless. Let alone small characters. Halflings just have to run from guys in plate. IME, making the armor bonus directly into DR is ok in a world of high Strength, specialized, Power Attacking fighters, but normal blokes, the clerics, rogues, and such, are doomed.

 

[feydras]

There are a few problems with the basic system you described.

If you port AC directly into DR you do get hit constantly, so 'to hit' bonuses become pointless past a certain point resulting in a hit nearly all the time.

Following the logic behind armor making you harder to hit, is Dex, not Str should now modify 'to hit' (but not 'damage') roll. You are no longer trying to punch past armor with your hit, but simply striking a surface well.

Power attack becomes essential to bypass decent armor.

Light weapons and/or low damage weapons become next to useless.

That said, have you seen 'sonofapreacherman's latest working of his 'armor as DR' rules? They address all these issues very well. For the price of a little learning time, the rules make combat much more flavorful and add some realism. Some things sonofapreacherman proposes to fix some of the above...

piercing weapons ignore half of DR. this allows DR to be bypassed by lower damage combatants and solves the problem of archers being unable to hurt anyone.

Added a couple feats that further enhance the ability to bypass armor.

Added a parry option that can be utilized. Sounds complex, but this fixes the system and is not bad once you learn it. Doesn't seem to slow down combat much. Instead, it makes the combat seem more intense.

Certain changes to shield rules help make up for the loss of traditional AC.

Max Dex bonus of armor is the limit to how much Dex you can add to your 'to hit' roll. This serves as a balance to how heavy of armor you want to wear.

There is more to the system. You should check it out here...

http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_combat_variant_page.htm

- feydras

 

[feydras]

Forgot one caveat... to balance the piercing weapons ignoring half DR, piercing weapons cannot be used to power attack.

- feydras

 

[Wolf72]

I think one of the keys to making sure DR doesn't nullify the 13 str town guard with the longsword is keep the DR relatively low.

the front page has wee blurb about UA, DR's from 1-4.

my own house rules give heavy armor DR 1 (and a +2 increase to AC)

 

[Tuzenbach]

In the "Unearthed Arcana" circa 1985 (god I'm old!) there was a system introduced with the inclusion of both the "full" and "field" plates armors. Basically, players had the option (IIRC) of allowing their armor to take damage instead of them.


HOWEVER


After the armor in question absorbed a certain amount of hp of damage, it would be one armor class worse until repaired. Repairing the armor was extremely expensive, but buying the armor in the first place was just as ridiculous (for cash-strapped charactes, that is!). Field plate (base AC was 2 not including the shield, 1E rules) was 2000gp, while Full plate (AC 1) was 4000gp. You could hardly move in the stuff and repairs and maintenance costs almost made it more trouble than it was worth.

 

[CombatWombat51]

In the "Unearthed Arcana" circa 1985 (god I'm old!) there was a system introduced with the inclusion of both the "full" and "field" plates armors. Basically, players had the option (IIRC) of allowing their armor to take damage instead of them.


HOWEVER


After the armor in question absorbed a certain amount of hp of damage, it would be one armor class worse until repaired. Repairing the armor was extremely expensive, but buying the armor in the first place was just as ridiculous (for cash-strapped charactes, that is!). Field plate (base AC was 2 not including the shield, 1E rules) was 2000gp, while Full plate (AC 1) was 4000gp. You could hardly move in the stuff and repairs and maintenance costs almost made it more trouble than it was worth.

Since I happen to love UA field and full plate, and I've got the book in front of me, I'll give the details on them, including normal plate mail for comparison.

Armor		AC	Bulk	Weight	Move	Cost

Plate Mail		3	bulky	45#	6"	400 gp
Field Plate	2	fairly	55#	6"	2,000 gp
Full Plate		1	fairly	65#	6"	4,000 gp

I don't remember what 'bulk' affected, but "fairly" was less bulky than "bulky"; only as bulky as chain mail.

The additional important bits were that field and full plate had to be fitted to the wearer, though magical suits adapted (as with all magical gear). Field plate absorbed one point of damage from every die of damage that the wearer suffered. So one point was absorbed from a long sword blow, and 8 points were absorbed from a 8 HD fireball. Field plate had 12 hit points, and once those points were gone, the AC increased by one, to an AC of 3. Repairing field plate required a skilled armorer 1 day per hit point to be restored, and cost 100 gp per hit point.

Full plate had better absorbtion than field plate. It absorbed the first 2 points per die of damage and had 26 hit points. Unfortunately, it also took 2 days and 200 gp per hit point to be restored.

 

[AeroDm]

Either DR must be reduced or damage must be increased. Star Wars has the average weapon weighing in at 3d6, more than enough to overcome the DR 7 that is their highest.

Allowing people to gain DR 8 by 3rd level (when anyone should be able to afford full plate) is not so keen a plan. Reducing all DRs by half remedies much of the problems.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Howdy Azure Trance.

Sorry I didn't notice your thread until just now, but I see that feydras (a one-man press gang) got to it first.

Thanks again feydras.

If you haven't already Azure, check out the link he provided. The more monkies the merrier.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Either DR must be reduced or damage must be increased. Star Wars has the average weapon weighing in at 3d6, more than enough to overcome the DR 7 that is their highest.

Allowing people to gain DR 8 by 3rd level (when anyone should be able to afford full plate) is not so keen a plan. Reducing all DRs by half remedies much of the problems.

Hey! I'll have you know that I'm half-way through 4th level and still can't afford field plate! LoL

But seriously, a lot of DM's are *stingier* than others, which isn't always a bad thing as it keeps value, well, more *valuable*. Generally speaking, there are more EXPs handed out than monetary treasure in my DM's campaign.

For example, I remember a time when my character found a barrel of some 2000 copper pieces-COPPER PIECES!!!-and actually attempted to roll it to town. Unfortunately, the town was too far, it was getting dark, and the encumberance was too hefty for my puny alchemist/theif with the strength of 12. I ended up hiding it in the bushes and hoped I could come back for it later. Frustrating? Yes! But ultimately, more *real* than most campaigns I've been a part of.