Armor as DR and light weapons

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm using the "Armor as DR" variant from Unearthed Arcana, but I'm running into a somewhat annoying problem-- one of my PCs is using two daggers, and unless he pulls off his Sneak Attack, is practically incapable of damaging any armored opponent.

While in some cases this can be considered realistic, one of the main anti-armor tactics used historically was to use small piercing weapons that could more easily be forced through the armor. Also, while I'm comfortable with reducing the damage-dealing capacity of a character using two weapons, I don't like making this character completely ineffectual.

Right now, I am thinking of making Adamantine weapons more expensive, but giving them the ability to ignore creature and armor DR the same way they ignore object hardness. I'm concerned this might make higher-level Monks more powerful than they're intended to be, however.

Are there any other suggestions for how to make daggers or other piercing weapons more effective against armored characters when using this variant?

 

[DanMcS]

I'm using the "Armor as DR" variant from Unearthed Arcana, but I'm running into a somewhat annoying problem-- one of my PCs is using two daggers, and unless he pulls off his Sneak Attack, is practically incapable of damaging any armored opponent.

While in some cases this can be considered realistic, one of the main anti-armor tactics used historically was to use small piercing weapons that could more easily be forced through the armor. Also, while I'm comfortable with reducing the damage-dealing capacity of a character using two weapons, I don't like making this character completely ineffectual.

Daggers were used against heavily armored foes when they were helpless and unable to resist. You forced them through the visor or under the arm where the armor was weakest. If this is your only concern, then simply let a coup de grace ignore armor DR. He chose to bring a knife to a sword-and-plate-mail fight, make him work for those sneak attacks.

Right now, I am thinking of making Adamantine weapons more expensive, but giving them the ability to ignore creature and armor DR the same way they ignore object hardness. I'm concerned this might make higher-level Monks more powerful than they're intended to be, however.

Monks aren't terribly dangerous at high levels, mainly because their BAB lags behind that of primary fighters. Don't worry about it too much, but if it becomes a problem, you could say that the adamantine hardness-penetration only applies to edged/piercing weapons, so a blunt one wouldn't get as much benefit.

Are there any other suggestions for how to make daggers or other piercing weapons more effective against armored characters when using this variant?

You could create an extra rating for some weapons, call it "penetration", that applies to certain weapons. Off the top of my head, the dagger and the pick type weapons should get this. Say they reduce armor DR by an amount equal to their damage die or something, so a dagger would penetrate 4 points of armor DR. A dagger gainst a suit of DR 5 armor, the armor would only grant 1 point of DR. If that seems too high, use half their damage die.

 

[Bloosquig]

You could also just say that by making a called shot with certain small piercing weapons you can ignore the DR. So you can take a minus to hit and shove your dagger etc. through a chink but not your 12 foot great(big)sword of flaming infinite bleeding damage and doom. That way the bigger weapons have to hack their way through while the smaller ones can try to be sneaky sneaky.
hmmmm...... sword of flaming infinite bleeding damage and doom...

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Monks aren't terribly dangerous at high levels, mainly because their BAB lags behind that of primary fighters. Don't worry about it too much, but if it becomes a problem, you could say that the adamantine hardness-penetration only applies to edged/piercing weapons, so a blunt one wouldn't get as much benefit.

Thinking about it, I'm applying Class Defense Bonuses as well, so the Monk's lower BAB may very well compensate for this. I'll have to think about it.

You could create an extra rating for some weapons, call it "penetration", that applies to certain weapons. Off the top of my head, the dagger and the pick type weapons should get this. Say they reduce armor DR by an amount equal to their damage die or something, so a dagger would penetrate 4 points of armor DR. A dagger gainst a suit of DR 5 armor, the armor would only grant 1 point of DR. If that seems too high, use half their damage die.

I'm actually thinking of making it a weapon special quality, like the bonus some weapons get on trips or disarms. Basically, it would allow the weapon to halve the DR value of any armor or natural armor it was used against. Daggers could then either have this quality or the thrown range increment. Punching daggers would automatically qualify, as would picks, and the morningstar. Other weapons would simply have to brute force through the armor.

I'm considering allowing it for crossbows as well.

You could also just say that by making a called shot with certain small piercing weapons you can ignore the DR. So you can take a minus to hit and shove your dagger etc. through a chink but not your 12 foot great(big)sword of flaming infinite bleeding damage and doom. That way the bigger weapons have to hack their way through while the smaller ones can try to be sneaky sneaky.

That's what the player in question is pushing for. Say, weapon in question must be light, and it imposes a -4 penalty to the attack roll? Would that be balanced?

 

[dekrass]

In the games where I've used armor as DR I also used vitality points.

I treat it like Star Wars d20. The DR only applies to wounds.

 

[Felonious Monk]

What about a variant on the Chink in the Armor feat in Song and Silence? I'm not familiar with the armor DR variant, but maybe halve the DR for anyone with the feat as long as they use a piercing and/or slashing weapon, possibly restricting to light weapons.

 

[SteveC]

I'm using the "Armor as DR" variant from Unearthed Arcana, but I'm running into a somewhat annoying problem-- one of my PCs is using two daggers, and unless he pulls off his Sneak Attack, is practically incapable of damaging any armored opponent.

While in some cases this can be considered realistic, one of the main anti-armor tactics used historically was to use small piercing weapons that could more easily be forced through the armor. Also, while I'm comfortable with reducing the damage-dealing capacity of a character using two weapons, I don't like making this character completely ineffectual.

Right now, I am thinking of making Adamantine weapons more expensive, but giving them the ability to ignore creature and armor DR the same way they ignore object hardness. I'm concerned this might make higher-level Monks more powerful than they're intended to be, however.

Are there any other suggestions for how to make daggers or other piercing weapons more effective against armored characters when using this variant?

Here's a suggestion: give everyone the option to ignore armor's DR by taking a penalty to hit equal to the DR. This means if you attack a character in full plate armor you can either attack normally against DR 4, or attack at -4 and bypass the armor entirely. Since the armor gives a +4 armor bonus, you end up having exactly the same to hit number as you would without the rules for DR!

What this does is give characters an option: hit the target a little easier and have to deal with DR, or work to bypass it by attacking the vulnerable spots around the armor.

I've run a little with this system, and it works pretty well!

--Steve

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I treat it like Star Wars d20. The DR only applies to wounds.

That's actually one of my least favorite "features" of Star Wars d20R. Makes armor absolutely not worth the penalties that wearing it imposes.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Most of the GMs who have armor as DR only give half the bonus to DR, and the other half still goes to AC. It won't entirely fix the problem you have, but they find that it works much more effectively for them.

 

[DanMcS]

Most of the GMs who have armor as DR only give half the bonus to DR, and the other half still goes to AC. It won't entirely fix the problem you have, but they find that it works much more effectively for them.

He said he's using the variant from UA, which is exactly that.