Armor in RPG's

[Aus_Snow]

Anyway what do you guys look for in an armor system for it to make you feel it does a good job?

Damage reduction.

I'll second Conan: The Roleplaying Game (Atlantean edition) as having a pretty neat armour system.

In the core rulebooks, there are really only 3 viable armors: Leather (if you can't wear metal armor), Chain Shirt (if you're restricted to light) or Full Plate (if you can wear heavy).

I thought it was more like Hide, Chain Shirt (Mithril's a plus,) Mithril Breastplate and Mithril Full Plate. I've also seen masterwork (or magical) Studded Leather more than a couple of times.

 

[doghead]

general - armour

What do I want?

* Simplicity and speed.
* Armour protects the wearer from damage.
* Wearing armour is the rational thing to do in most combat situations.

I like Ken Hood's system - armour is treated as a form of damage reduction. The critical hit system allows for an attacker to, among other things, bypass the defenders armour. But I don't tend to bother with the critical hit system - its too fussy. The system already incorporates an 'overkill' system; the amount by which the attack result exceeds the defence result is added to the damage. So even smaller weapons have the potential to harm a defender in heavy armour with a little luck or skill.

doghead
aka thotd

 

[green slime]

Things I like an armor system to do in an RPG:
1)provide me with many viable choices, most of which are based off of historical models.

I can sympathise with this sentiment

2)All me to mix and match character concepts and armor types, so that I can build just about whatever combination I can dream off (fencer in full plate, brigand who only wears heavier armor above the waste, and lighter armor below etc)

Today, you can do the first, but it doesn't make much real world sense. Fighting an opponent armoured in plate, your fencing blade is nigh useless.

You could probably even persuade your DM to let you do the latter, as well, and gain a middling AC.

3)each armor type have a purpose that is not easily eclipsed by another armor

But this is not historically accurate. You wanted them based on historical models?

4)in regards to computer RPG's I want armor to make my character look cool, no matter what type I am wearing

I haven't really noticed much armour in CRPG's making my avatar look nerdy.... Maybe you have a different value system to me?

5)each armor mechanically represents what its concept implies it should do.

Armour: stops you getting hurt. The more money you have, the better armour you can afford. How much concept is there?

6)have a system of improving armor over time/experience that makes sense (do not make plate available before chain, even if chain is 3 ranks up the light armor scale, and plate is only 2 ranks up the heavy armor scale, oblivion I am looking at you lol)

You've lost me here. Better armour costs more money.

7)Provide my character primarily with benifits that differ based on the armor and its role, as opposed to differentiating between armor types by penalties.

I'd say cost, cost, cost.

The great penalty to wearing armour is that it is tiring, chafes, can cause heat exhaustion in warm climates, and in some cases, when poorly made, restricts movement.

I don't think armour should restrict your movement to 20 feet per round. Nor does it prevent you from cartwheeling (if you can cartwheel at all). But it is tiring. And the heavier it is, the more tiring it gets.

The benefit is, you are less likely to get killed. Seems like a good benefit to me.

 

[werk]

I've been thinking since I posted in this thread yesterday, and I don't DR is really the way to go unless you visualize every strike penetrating thru the armor to damage the sausage underneath.

Now I'm thinking miss chance may be a good way to go with it.

light - 10%
med - 30%
hvy - 50%

or something...

 

[Dan Bell]

Things I like an armor system to do in an RPG:
1)provide me with many viable choices, most of which are based off of historical models.

2)All me to mix and match character concepts and armor types, so that I can build just about whatever combination I can dream off (fencer in full plate, brigand who only wears heavier armor above the waste, and lighter armor below etc)

3)each armor type have a purpose that is not easily eclipsed by another armor

4)in regards to computer RPG's I want armor to make my character look cool, no matter what type I am wearing

5)each armor mechanically represents what its concept implies it should do.

6)have a system of improving armor over time/experience that makes sense (do not make plate available before chain, even if chain is 3 ranks up the light armor scale, and plate is only 2 ranks up the heavy armor scale, oblivion I am looking at you lol)

7)Provide my character primarily with benifits that differ based on the armor and its role, as opposed to differentiating between armor types by penalties.

Thats a pretty rough list of what I would like to see in armor, and sadly I have a really hard time finding a game that provides for all of the above.

Oni,
Based on your OP, your might want to check out HarnMaster's armour system: http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001
It is complex, but matches many of your points.
Regards
Dan

 

[Thunderfoot]

The problem with any system that I have used is it fails the physics principle - simple, elegant, useful. (BTW string theory is a pipe dream and doesn't fit the physic model either)

So, what do I mean:

The current system - actually a combined system AC and HP TOGETHER make the system, which is why when you toy with only one part of the equation the system seems to make you either uber hard to kill or a one shot nancy-boy. It isn't elegant, but it is simple and useful - two points for current system

Hit location versus damage reduction systems - By far the most accurate systems, they can tell or foretell a killing blow versus a glancing annoyance. The intricacies of these systems make storytelling a brilliant delight and math and paperwork so thick as to give an IRS audit accountant a brain hemorrhage. Useful absolutely, elegant kind of, simple - not in this world or the next. - Two points for charts and graphs

Damage reduction over hit points - trying to alter the "Broken half" of the original. Armor is a reduction system, any structural engineer can show that ablation equals protection. True, in the modern workings of armor absorption and ablation are prime factors, however, in historical context, absorption and deflection were the prime factors in armor production. The systems suffer from many minor defects, mostly an either gradual creeping defensive curve in some systems or a gradually decreasing curve in others. (IOW in some campaigns it becomes nearly impossible to hit at high levels and in others its just as effective to run around in a loincloth) - Simple - usually, useful - maybe, elegant - never. Two points for this system.

Crap, have you noticed a pattern here... The problem with any system as it stands is you're only getting two wheels on the tricycle and the bicycle is not an option. If someone can create a systems that mimics real world physics, interacts with fantasy meta-magic properties, doesn't have a power curve and doesn't require a degree in differential equations or a masters of calculus to operate, please, show it to me. But frankly, whatever system you choose is the right one for you. Arguments along these lines are as useless as a utter on a bull.

(BTW - if you are going to suggest the perfect system, it had better not be from any of the major contenders because I've tried them - D&D isn't it; GURPS, don't insult me; Rolemaster, my brain still hurts from college Calculus, I don't need any higher level learning functions while I am trying to relax....etc, etc, etc)

 

[Huw]

I read somewhere that one of the biggest killers of medieval warriors was tetanus. Mail was essentially there to stop you getting cut, as even a small nick could be fatal in dirty conditions. Don't think that would go down well in any fantasy game (except maybe Harn).

 

[jmucchiello]

This I just don't get. It bothered me in SWSE until someone pointed out things like systems monitors, integrated medpacs, and wound compression patches, all of which make sense for a futuristic game. What is the reason for including it with plain old leather and steel. What is your rationale?

Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.

Play a different game if you want that. Hit points are an abstraction that takes into account both vitality and fighting ability. This is why my temporary hit point solution includes character level. The epic 21st rogue uses his armor to better advantage than the 1st level fighter. Thus his leather armor actual protects him better (by providing more temp hp).

But, when it comes to a snake bite, you need to know if the snake bit into flesh. Thus the armor as damage absorption is irrelevant. You need armor as keeping those fangs off my flesh. So adding the AC bonus to the Fort save makes sense. Against a disintegrate ray, the armor doesn't make it harder for the ray to "penetrate" and thus it would not add.

As for armor damage, again, this doesn't make sense in an abstract combat system. You need a system where every successful hit means blood before you can graft on armor damage.

 

[ONINOTAKI18]

There have been a bunch of very interesting comments made in this thread that I would like to respond to 1st before I talk about more generalized armor stuff.

@Armor: +1 light, +2 medium, +3 heavy is pretty much what I like to see in a war game, but is not detailed enough for me in an RPG

@FranktheDM: I love how you think

@Jackelope King: I really like M&M but I don’t really feel like they have an armor system per say, more like a defense system that can be described as armor if you like, or as a cloud of feathers if that is more your style.

@Arkhandus: Thanks for the recommendation; I am going to try to get my hands on a copy of Ramlar so I can check it out.

@Logan9a: Oddly enough yurts are my dream house and I have been doing much studying up on them so that I will be as prepared as possible to assemble the one I manage to get my hands on lol

@Doghead: I agree with you on all 3 points, and I would like to see all 3 in a system with as many viable armor types as possible

@Green Slime: By historical I meant that I wanted the majority of the armor types to be described as stuff from human history as opposed to things like star armor, or glass armor etc, so please don’t point out that my desires have nothing to do with the actual development of armor Also by cool I meant not ugly, which is what most CRPG’s and MMO’s have a tendency to do Finally in regards to the armor progression comment in oblivion armor is divided in 2 categories, Light and Heavy. You are restricted in what armor types you can find in the game by your level, for example light armor goes roughly like this fur @ level 1, leather @ level 3, chain @ level 6 etc. While this is all fine and dandy and works great for someone who only wears light armor, it makes it feel kind of wonky for someone who wants to mix in heavy armor as well. Speaking of which heavy armor progresses as follows: Iron plate @ level 1, Steel plate @ level 3, dwarven plate @ level 6 etc. So I cannot mix steel plate with chain until level 6 but I can have a full suit of steel plate at level 3 which drives me insane lol

@ Dan Bell: Thanks for the recommendation, I checked out harnmaster today, and from what I can see, their system is just a tad to complex for me. I don’t need to be layering armors, just presented with a variety of historical suits, mixed with a handful of fantasy suits.

@Thunderfoot: That is an interesting way to look at things; I will have to keep that in mind.

Lastly I didn’t mention any rules in my 1st post because I wanted to keep the discussion as close to the concept of armor in RPG’s as opposed to how to tweak an armor system for this game or that game. That being said you guys have given me some great things to chew over and I hope the conversation can continue to be as interesting as it currently is.

 

[logan9a]

Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.
Hit point loss does not equal physical wounds.

Play a different game if you want that. Hit points are an abstraction that takes into account both vitality and fighting ability. This is why my temporary hit point solution includes character level. The epic 21st rogue uses his armor to better advantage than the 1st level fighter..

So that's why you need a cleric to heal you?