Armor Redone [Final Draft v1.1]

[Technik4]

Im looking for help on this system, its a little rough right now. Its purpose is to improve the way armor is handled in 3.0e which unfortunately won't be seeing an improvement in 3.5. These are the "problems" associated with armor:

-Too few armors used. Each category has a couple "best" armors that are almost always used on adventurers.

-Heavy armor penalizes heavily, but doesn't give rewards equal to the punishment. 2 characters, one in a chain shirt, one in full plate will have nearly equal ACs (and therefore damage "soak") which isn't really how it should be. The only advantage the full plate wearer has is during a surprise round, however the chain shirt wearer has better defense against other attack forms (which negate armor entirely).


This system attempts to fix these problems. [All changes refer to v1.0]

Light Armors:
Padded: 5gp; Max Dex +10; ACP 0; ASF 5%; Wt 10lb.; AC +1
Leather: 10gp; Max Dex +8; ACP 0; ASF 10%; Wt 15lb.; AC +2
S. Leather: 25gp; Max Dex +6; ACP -1; ASF 15%; Wt 20lb.; AC +3
Chain Shirt: 50gp; Max Dex +4; ACP -1; ASF 10%; Wt 25lb.; AC +3

[Chain Shirt price lowered 50gp]

Medium Armors:
-Speed Reduction: 20/15

Hide: 15gp; Max Dex +4; ACP -3; ASF 20%; Wt 25lb.; AC +4
Chainmail: 100gp; Max Dex +3; ACP -3; ASF 10%; Wt 30lb.; AC +5
Scale Mail: 150gp; Max Dex +3; ACP -4; ASF 25%; Wt 35lb.; AC +6
Breastplate: 300gp; Max Dex +2; ACP -5; ASF 30%; Wt 40lb.; AC +7

[Scale Mail AC increased by 1, price increased by 100gp. Chainmail AC reduced by 1, ACP reduced by 1, price reduced by 50gp. Breastplate price increased by 50gp.]

Heavy Armors:
-Speed Reduction: 20/15*
-All Heavy Armors provide DR 1
*When running in heavy armor you only move triple your speed.

Splint: 500gp; Max Dex +2; ACP -6; ASF 35%; Wt 40lb.; AC +7
Banded: 750gp; Max Dex +2; ACP -7; ASF 40%; Wt 45lb.; AC +8
Halfplate: 1,200gp; Max Dex +1; ACP -8; ASF 45%; Wt 50 lb.; AC +9
Full Plate: 2,500gp; Max Dex +1; ACP -7; ASF 40%; Wt 55 lb.; AC +10

[Banded Armor increased ACP by 1. Half-plate increased ACP by 1. Full Plate increased ACP by 1. Splint increased cost by 100gp. Banded increased cost by 150gp. Half-plate increased cost by 200 gold. Fullplate increased cost by 500gp.]

Shields
Buckler: 15gp; ACP -1; ASF 5%; Wt 5lb.; AC +1
Small Shield: 10gp; ACP -2; ASF 5%; Wt 6lb.; AC +2
Large Shield: 20gp; ACP -3; ASF 15%; Wt 15lb.; AC +3
Tower Shield: 30gp; ACP -10; ASF 50%; Wt 45lb.; Special

Now clearly full plate is only for very undextrous characters. Chainmail remains a good choice for a character who wants medium armor. With a +5 AC and a +3 Max Dex, you get more mileage out of it then you would for more expensive plate mail.

This is Final Draft v1.1, tell me what you think.

Technik

 

[Wolf72]

if you make this a table in word, then use [ code and /code]

you should be able to get a table like THIS ... and don't be fooled I must have edited till my eyes bled b/c things were off by a space here and there ...

I like your stream lined armors (one of each AC). I think the only idea I had to compensate for crappy/useless armors was to throw in a little RP'ing limitation: Certain armors were only available to nobles or specially licensed persons (from city officials btw) ... or make it yourself (again you'd need a permit) or prepare to pay a fine for wearing restricted armor. Helps me visualize someone buying splintmail over banded mail.

 

[Angcuru]

I think it works out rather well, but for some reason, I just can't see Hide Armor having a Max Dex of +4, its too high, considering that it's stiff and a bit bulky, rather resricting your movement. But drop the Dex bonus to +3, and I'd say it'd work.

Yeah, I'd say that this works quite well in terms of game mechanics. Every suit of armor has it's ups and downs, so depending on the character, you choose the appropriate suit of armor. Using these rules, you might actually see someone wearing Banded Mail, for a change. Price adjustsments are good, too.

But the weight for Full plate should be around 70-75 pounds, Half Plate being around 60. Altering them to these wieghts adds to realism by only allowing characters with significant strength scores to use them effectively.

 

[mmu1]

I think the main flaw in your system is that you seem to be making the assumption that everyone has DEX to spare, allowing them to use Chain Shirts in preference to Full Plate, which in most games isn't going to be the case.

In my experience, most characters a) Don't have nearly enough Dex to make a Chain Shirt the optimal choice, which means they usually end up sacificing a lot of AC in exchange for mobility and lower ACP by going with light armor, or b) Have a high Dex, but are hosed in the Str or Con department as a result, which means there's a big trade-off involved in being able to take full advantage of light armor.

Under your system, the people who choose to make Dex their highest stat get shafted, while those who choose to play more traditional warrior-types with high Str and Con, and low Dex, get a huge reward.

That, and I'm also pretty sure that your heaviest armors with their +12 AC will break the system. 26 AC (with Full Plate and a Large Shield), reasonably easy to achieve under your system for a 3rd level fighter will require (for a 3rd level fighter with 18 Str, Weapon Focus and a MW weapon) a 17+ to hit - that's 20%. Under the current system, a guy in a similar get-up has 21 AC, and he'll be hit on a 12+, or 45% of the time. That's a pretty radical shift in the To Hit / AC balance, without even taking into account things like what this kind of change will do the usefulness of iterative attacks.

 

[Merlion]

I like it Techy. Not bad at all. I like having more variety, more reasons to choose more different types of armor, and ways to get your AC up higher without the use of magic items. Other than completely redoing half the combat system in order to have mostly DR based armor, this is probably the best option we have for thease problems.
If you arent already monitoring Arcana Unearthed, you might want to. Monte Cook sees many of the same problems and is going to try and address them in AU. Theirs going to be exotic armors for instance and more armor related feats. Also class based AC bonuses for many classes, which is another good idea.
Edit: In response to the poster above me I'd say maybe bumping the price of some of the heavy armors a wee might not be a bad idea...just to keep the ACs from getting to high to fast.

 

[Technik4]

Going to work some numbers:


2,700 gp
3rd level Fighter- Str and Con based (say 18 Str, 16 Con, 12 Dex)
Mwk Full Plate, Mwk Lg Shield, Mwk Greatsword, 100gp left over
Total AC: 26 DR: 1; ACP -7; Spd 20/15

3rd level Ftr/Rog- Dex based (say 12 Str, 16 Con, 18 Dex)
Chain Shirt +1, Mwk Buckler, Mwk Rapier, 1000gp left over
Total AC: 20; ACP -1; Spd 30/20


Third level is a good level to compare for the straight fighter as the full-plate becomes an option, but between the speed hit, the huge ACP and the cost it definitely goes towards making more of a "tank". Lets look what happens next level.

5,400gp
4th level Fighter
Mwk Full Plate, Mwk Lg Shield, Greatsword +1, 900gp left over
Total AC: 26 DR: 1; ACP -7, Spd 20/15

4th level Ftr/Rog
Mithral Chainmail, Mwk Buckler, Mwk Rapier, 900gp left over
Total AC: 22; ACP -1; Spd 30/20

Mithral Chainmail is a good option now, while expensive, you get good bang for your buck. And shouldn't the slow moving str tough warrior have a better AC? He's more likely to be on the front line (and when he gets there, he isn't going anywhere fast). Keep in mind that movement bonuses from the look of 3.5 actually take armor into account. So expeditious retreat and haste provide +30 movement, to a maximum of double your normal movement. The tank goes up to 40 feet, the finesse fighter goes up to 60.

I took the Hide armor feedback into consideration, as well as raising the ACP of Lg Shield to -3. I'm thinking of raising the price on the heavy armors. Basically I want light to be 5-100, medium 150-1,000ish, and heavy up to 5,000. I think it may be too severe though.

Keep the feedback comin'!

Technik

 

[Merlion]

Thats nice, dear. Now go to my threads.

 

[mmu1]

5,400gp
4th level Fighter
Mwk Full Plate, Mwk Lg Shield, Greatsword +1, 900gp left over
Total AC: 26 DR: 1; ACP -7, Spd 20/15

4th level Ftr/Rog
Mithral Chainmail, Mwk Buckler, Mwk Rapier, 900gp left over
Total AC: 22; ACP -1; Spd 30/20

In this comparison, if you're going to spend all the money on armor, the Fighter should have +1 Full Plate and +1 shield instead of a +1 Greatsword (since the Fighter/Rogue still only has a MW rapier), for a total AC of 28. So it's even worse than in my example...

My theory on this whole thing is that being able to have a higher AC than someone with 18 Dex, without putting more than a 10 or 12 in Dex yourself, is reward enough even when you consider the ACP and reduced movement. Putting a stat high enough into Dex to have an AC almost as good as someone in Full Plate is a huge investment, and is really a sub-optimal way way for a fighter-type to allocate his stats - so I don't think there's a problem if that kind of approach has certain rewards. The guys running around in Full Plate are basically taking the easy way out, so I don't think they should be rewarded even more than they already are for dumping Dex.

 

[seasong]

Heavy armor advantages
- High flat-footed AC
- Replaces DEX for AC purposes

Heavy armor disadvantages
- Low touch AC
- Slower running movement (no impact on combat movement)

Heavy armor essentially converts DEX AC into ARMOR AC; Armor AC weighs you down a bit, but isn't subject to flat-footed penalties. And while it is vulnerable to touch attacks, it requires special spells or powers to get a touch attack, whereas flat-footed attacks can be achieved by just anyone. It also allows you to simulate having a higher DEX than you do, because you can buy armors with insane AC modifiers, from a DEX standpoint.

From a strict balance point, heavy armors are a valid tactical choice over light armor. The problem is when you want realism. Realistically, heavier armor is better; in D&D, it isn't, it's just "a valid alternative" to high DEX and light armor.

 

[Technik4]

Seasong:

I would agree but Dex is too powerful. An archer doesn't have to rely on str, neither does a rogue, or a dex-based fighter.

Right now, in 3.0e, any of those characters get too much mileage out of Dex (imo).

Picture the same scenario as above, with regular armor:

2,700gp
3rd level Ftr
Mwk Full Plate, Mwk Longsword, Mwk Lg Shield. 500gp left over
Total AC: 21; ACP: -6; Spd 20/15; Wt 60lb armor

3rd level Ftr/Rog
Chain Shirt +1, Mwk Rapier, Mwk Buckler, 200gp left over
Total AC: 20; ACP: -1; Spd 30/20; Wt 30lb armor

Their AC differs by 1. As you said, it is an advantage to have a high-flat-footed AC, however a ftr rogue (or even a dex-based straight fighter) is going to have a higher initiative and thus less likely to need the flat-footed AC. Esp if the finesse fighter ends up taking 2 rogue levels.

Also, their movement is a severe disadvantage in combat. If you roll 2d6x10 to determine the distance of the encounter (then roll spot checks to see if either gets a surprise round, re-rerolling 2d6x10 if neither side notices) the encounter will frequently be 50+ feet away. Which means the tank is going to have to make a double move or draw a ranged weapon to start fighting. The dex-based character is either an archer or rog/ftr and can practically charge ahead.

With an AC almost that of the heavy fighter, with a comprable attack bonus, with a better initiative score, with a higher movement, the only lack they really have is damage (which is only slightly lower than a sword+board fighter). If this comparison were against a fighter without a shield (in favor of a greatsword) then the damage gap would widen significantly but the finesse character would jump ahead as the AC leader.

That is the problem, as I see it. It is not a fair trade-off for those types of characters. Also, there are only a few types of armor used. Yes there are some interesting specific armors which use less-commonly picked armor types, but other than that I don't think you see the other armors often.

Technik