Armor Spikes: Unpractical?

[Klaus]

K...so where is the soft underside of armor?

Our points seem to be the same, pointy armor, while it might hurt, won't stop a hungrey animal...

But a hungry animal, given a choice between a meal in a hard shell (a Fighter) and a meal without a shell (the wizard buddy) should invariably go for the wizard buddy, unless commanded otherwise.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which sort of sums up my problem with Hennet Lovestobuckle. There's cool and practical and there's cool and impractical. I figure Hennet mostly hangs around at the local S&M tavern, looking cool, and not actually doing any adventuring. Those pretty tattoos around his nipples would get all scarred up and I don't want to think about what would happen to all of those buckles -- he certainly seems like he's one heat metal spell away from certain death.

Pfft. If you have to dress yourself in the morning, you're not made o' magic like a sorcerer. IMC, cantrips can dress you.

But a hungry animal, given a choice between a meal in a hard shell (a Fighter) and a meal without a shell (the wizard buddy) should invariably go for the wizard buddy, unless commanded otherwise.

It's all about the weakest prey. Lions try to catch young, old, weak, injured, or otherwise easy prey. But if they're desperately hungry, amazingly starving, they may go for more difficult prey. A coyote may flip a porcupine, but that's only true if he doesn't think he can wait for the next rabbit or mouse to come along.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Remember, we are talking about a world where alchemical items are fairly normal.

The RW equivalent to alchemy- modern day chemistry- has failed to produce reliable repellents that don't have significant drawbacks.

Viewing alchemy & magic as fantasy tech, barring actual magic- Potions, etc.- alchemy should have difficulties as well. Sure, you might be able to find the right oil or powder for the job...but how easy is it to make the extract, elixer etc?

To make a vial of Dragon-B-Gone, do you just combine a few common chemicals, or do you have to crush the flowers of 1,000 Corpse Blossoms (which only bloom every 10 years and only live inside Lich tombs).

And then, how reliable is it? Are there different formulae for different Dragons? Is it equally effective against all kinds? Are some immune?

What if Dragon-B-Gone has a side affect like..."May cause wearer to smell like Divine Ambrosia and Shrimp Cocktails to Tarrasques, Trolls and Bulettes."

Armor spikes = cheap & reliable tech, available almost anywhere, anytime. The village armorer may never have seen spiked armor, but if a warrior told him to add some to his platemail, I bet he could do it if it meant getting rid of The Bloodseeking Beast of Gummybear Hollows.

3) Stingers, esp. nematocysts.

Need to write up some Symbiotech...

I have some notes on an Aquatic Elf (or other race) Feat and/or Monk-ish PrCl that involves gaining nematocysts like Sea Slugs do- by eating Sea Anemones...

 

[Raven Crowking]

The RW equivalent to alchemy- modern day chemistry- has failed to produce reliable repellents that don't have significant drawbacks.

Yet, since D&D alchemy isn't RW chemistry, and D&D alchemy can create a universal antitoxin, and alchemy in folklore and myth might even change base metals to gold, create life, or grant immortality, I don't think that it is too far-fetched to say such a thing could be possible in a D&D world.

After all, the RW equivalent to the Monster Manual -- biology -- has failed to produce dragons, manticores, griffons, and gricks.

RC

 

[Hussar]

#3 Your sense of proprioception (where your body is in space around you) would be completely thrown off with armor spikes. [...] For a human, who wasn't born with spikes and has no way to tell where they are in relation to a limb, they would be a hassle at the least, and a deadly hazard at worst.

Y'know, this one bugged me enough to pipe up.

If 2 inch spikes disturb your sense of space so much that you cannot stop yourself from bumping into walls constantly, I REALLY hope you never get a driver's license.

 

[Numion]

If 2 inch spikes disturb your sense of space so much that you cannot stop yourself from bumping into walls constantly, I REALLY hope you never get a driver's license.

LOL

 

[Gothmog]

Y'know, this one bugged me enough to pipe up.

If 2 inch spikes disturb your sense of space so much that you cannot stop yourself from bumping into walls constantly, I REALLY hope you never get a driver's license.

Snarkiness aside, I can see what you are trying to say, but its not the same as what I'm trying to convey. First, when you drive, you usually are looking where you're going and can have a rough three-dimensional guage of where your car is compared to other obstacles. While a car is not a living extension of your body, you can be trained to be decent at learning where it is in space around you. However, if you add on a trailer or a ton of crap on the top of your car you're hauling around, it severely impairs your ability to drive as you normally would, and you have to pay conscious attention to your driving more.

In addition, your muscles and joints have structures called golgi tendon organs, muscle spindles, and proprioceptors that give you feedback about the position of your limbs in space, and about how much tension is being generated in a given muscle or tendon. The sensory info coming from these three types of information combine in the cerebellum and sensorimotor cortex of your brain to give you an idea of where your body is in space. Numerous studies in exercise sports physiology have shown conclusively that altering the weight distribution across your body impedes your sense of proprioception and ability to maintain balance and coordination, and even after time to train and acclimate to the new load, you're at best at 80% of your normal capacity. This is why football pads and gear are streamlined to impede joint mobility the least, and are made of lightweight components with their weight distributed across your axis of balance so it doesn't throw off your center of gravity. Adding spikes to armor WOULD screw with this badly, and while real medieval armor wasn't the best about distributing weight, fantasy armor with spikes like that would severely hamper the mobility, balance, and kinesthetic senses of a fighter trying to use it. Your body works best when you follow the motor programming inherent in it, and the spiky armor would interefere with that- meaning you had to pay more conscious attention to your movements. Constantly having to make conscious adjustments to your movements always makes you less efficient at those movements, this reducing range and capability of motion, and reducing the effectiveness of the fighter.

Like I said earlier, some spikes on the breastplate or on forearms or greaves might be managable, but not on shoulders, elbows, or other highly mobile joints. The problem here is that you are biologically wired to know where your body is in space around you, and adding on extra bits of spikiness and dungeonpunkiness does mess with your ability to function at something even close to normal capacity, and studies have shown you can't be adequately trained to improve that ability. So again, it seems really stupid to go dungeonpunk when your survival is at stake. Would spikes be a good idea if they were practical against grappers- sure. But the problem is, they aren't. We can argue aesthetics of who likes vs. doesnt like spiky armor all day, but you can't argue the anatomy and physiology behind what really occurs.

In the end, it doesn't matter what I think about this issue for your game- if you want to allow spiky armor in your game, go for it. I just think it looks ridiculous and its been shown that it would be a severe impairment to any fighter who wore it for a number of biophysical reasons. To me, its one of those things that represents style over substance, but in an annoying way- much like the ultra-goth slant of the Vampire books in the 90's, we have dungeonpunk for D&D in the 2000's.

 

[Numion]

Like I said earlier, some spikes on the breastplate or on forearms or greaves might be managable, but not on shoulders, elbows, or other highly mobile joints. The problem here is that you are biologically wired to know where your body is in space around you, and adding on extra bits of spikiness and dungeonpunkiness does mess with your ability to function at something even close to normal capacity, and studies have shown you can't be adequately trained to improve that ability. So again, it seems really stupid to go dungeonpunk when your survival is at stake.

But better be at 80% capability than eaten. Besides, I bet this is the same thing as they earlier said that full plate was only good for being used on horseback and then the knight had to be hoisted there with a crane, but now they tested and they can do cartwheels with full plate on. Nobodys just tested armor spikes just yet. A couple of rounds of wrestling against a bear with armor spikes and a couple without, and we'll see how useful they are.

That would be more convincing than using big words like kinestomology and dungeonpunk.

Would spikes be a good idea if they were practical against grappers- sure. But the problem is, they aren't. We can argue aesthetics of who likes vs. doesnt like spiky armor all day, but you can't argue the anatomy and physiology behind what really occurs.

I think they would be useful, why would those pakistani woodcutters use them otherwise? To look dungeonpunky? Or do you have some data on the usefulness on armor spikes?

 

[Storm Raven]

#3 Your sense of proprioception (where your body is in space around you) would be completely thrown off with armor spikes. In addtion to the example I gave in #1, you'd be forever bumping into objects, snagging them on your limbs, and generally impeding your movement because the spikes aren't a living part of your body. Yes, spikes work for porcupines because they are flexible. They work for ankylosaurus becasue they are SHORT. Pufferfish have spikes that expand out only when danger threatens them so they can inject their attacker with tetrodotoxin. For a human, who wasn't born with spikes and has no way to tell where they are in relation to a limb, they would be a hassle at the least, and a deadly hazard at worst.

Wouldn't this also apply just as equally to simply wearing, say, rigid armor?

 

[Gothmog]

But better be at 80% capability than eaten. Besides, I bet this is the same thing as they earlier said that full plate was only good for being used on horseback and then the knight had to be hoisted there with a crane, but now they tested and they can do cartwheels with full plate on. Nobodys just tested armor spikes just yet. A couple of rounds of wrestling against a bear with armor spikes and a couple without, and we'll see how useful they are.

That would be more convincing than using big words like kinestomology and dungeonpunk.



I think they would be useful, why would those pakistani woodcutters use them otherwise? To look dungeonpunky? Or do you have some data on the usefulness on armor spikes?

Well, I don't think you're going to find many folks willing to go get mauled by a bear while wearing spiky armor, except for maybe Troy Hurtubise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Hurtubise . The guy invented an anti-bear suit, which you'll notice doesn't have any spikes or protruding surfaces. Why? If a bear or other large, very strong critter can get a hold of something with its teeth, claws, or become impaled on it, all it takes is a couple of shaking or thrashing moves to break your neck, spine, or appendage. Basically, the more areas you give a big critter to get a hold of you (and spikes would increase the surface area of exposed armor), the more ways you give that critter to KEEP holding on to you. A better suit wouldn't use spikes at all, but instead give the beastie no way to get a hold of you- like Troy's suit.

Troy's suit looks like this: http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/7818251847282450.JPG?0.26128883038934936

Now, what WOULD work well against almost any attacker is a mild to moderate electrical jolt. Almost any animal or human who attacks another and is shocked immediately stops attacking, and usually flees. This has the added benefit of not impeding movement or proprioception, and in a magic-rich world like D&D is assumed to be in, this seems a far more viable alternative than spikes.