armor spikes

[Jack Simth]

You forgot dancing weapons.

Yes, but you are potentially required to attack to gain the benefits of a Defending weapon, and Dancing weapons require a standard action to activate, and only last four rounds before needing to take a break for four rounds. That, and it's a +4 equivalent; that +1 Dancing Defending dagger costs 72,302 gp, market. Even at 20th, you can only afford so many.

Oh, and interestingly, the Defending property specifies that it stacks with all others (although granted, it isn't crystal clear that it stacks with more versions of itself):

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.

(emphasis added)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, but you are potentially required to attack to gain the benefits of a Defending weapon, and Dancing weapons require a standard action to activate, and only last four rounds before needing to take a break for four rounds. That, and it's a +4 equivalent; that +1 Dancing Defending dagger costs 72,302 gp, market. Even at 20th, you can only afford so many.

There's a Dancing Weapon spell in one of the splatbooks, isn't there?

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

the Defending property specifies that it stacks with all others

Defending has the following wording:
"a bonus that stacks with all others."
... this is sometimes interpreted as indicating that it stacks with itself, but this appears unwarranted.

Take for example the wording for unnamed bonuses:
"A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus."
... this is similar to (or even more permissive than) the wording for defending weapons, yet we do not interpret that to mean they can stack with themselves. In fact, we know that unnamed bonuses don't stack with themselves.

It is most reasonable to view the bonus from defending as an unnamed bonus (and likely the most balanced way to handle potential stacking problems).


(emphasis added)

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is most reasonable to view the bonus from defending as an unnamed bonus (and likely the most balanced way to handle potential stacking problems).

But is the unnamed bonus from a +1 Defending weapon the same unnamed bonus as the unnamed bonus from a different +1 Defending weapon, or are they different unnamed bonuses?

Is it more like somehow taking the Weapon Focus feat twice (as a feat and later as a class feature, perhaps), or like two different characters Aiding Another to provide unnamed bonuses to your AC in the same round? (Or two +2 unnamed bonuses for synergy from two different skills, say?)

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

But is the unnamed bonus from a +1 Defending weapon the same unnamed bonus as the unnamed bonus from a different +1 Defending weapon, or are they different unnamed bonuses?

From the rules:
"Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)."

"same source" refers to the same type of effect or spell (not the same item or caster). The following rule clarifies that a bit:
"Stacking Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves."
... but that fact is fairly well known.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"same source" refers to the same type of effect or spell (not the same item or caster).

Aid Another explicitly states that it stacks, so perhaps it's an exception.

SKill synergy does not. If I get a +2 unnamed bonus to my Diplomacy checks due to skill synergy (because I have 5 ranks in Bluff), and I get a +2 unnamed bonus to my Diplomacy checks due to skill synergy (because I have 5 ranks in Knowledge (Nobility)), what do I add to my Diplomacy checks? Are they the 'same source' (same type of effect - skill synergy), or different sources (synergy from Bluff, synergy from Knowledge)?

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Aid Another explicitly states that it stacks, so perhaps it's an exception.

SKill synergy does not. If I get a +2 unnamed bonus to my Diplomacy checks due to skill synergy (because I have 5 ranks in Bluff), and I get a +2 unnamed bonus to my Diplomacy checks due to skill synergy (because I have 5 ranks in Knowledge (Nobility)), what do I add to my Diplomacy checks? Are they the 'same source' (same type of effect - skill synergy), or different sources (synergy from Bluff, synergy from Knowledge)?

Are you contesting how the "same source" rule works, whether it applies to things like defending, and/or merely noting curiosities?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are you contesting how the "same source" rule works, whether it applies to things like defending, and/or merely noting curiosities?

Whether it applies to things like Defending.

We know that the same spell cast twice in succession counts as 'same source', because it's the example.

What we don't know is whether two different Defending weapons are more similar to the same spell cast twice in succession (same source), or 5 ranks in two different skills (different sources, apparently, since it's generally accepted that skilly synergy stacks).

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Whether it applies to things like Defending.

We know that the same spell cast twice in succession counts as 'same source', because it's the example.

The same spell cast by two different casters would count as the same source. The skill bonuses provided by two different lens' of detection would count as the same source. A dodge bonus from two (hypothetical) similar ioun stones would count as the same source. The same bonus provided by two different defending weapons should count as the same source. That's kinda how stacking works. I'm surprised this isn't a staple for you.

Two bonuses provided by two different skills doesn't seem like the same source to me (and besides, the rules specifically state it's allowed).

The bonus from aid another does seem like an exception to the rule though (i.e. I would not have allowed it if the rules did not specifically say it was allowed... and even then I rarely allow it) .

 

[Hypersmurf]

Two bonuses provided by two different skills doesn't seem like the same source to me (and besides, the rules specifically state it's allowed).

Do they? I can't find it.

-Hyp.