D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[GMforPowergamers]

So then why are you mocking me in post #439? You even quoted me saying "Like every other assertion in this thread, it's a matter of taste," so clearly you're aware that I'm fine with you feeling the way you do. Why do you also feel the need to denigrate me?

because you jumped from "hey some people like rolling stats" to "Some people might like to play a game that causes them to sit on a tac" and used the defense that works for statement A as if it also defended statement B... the crazy idea of the tac is to show that we all understand each other and are just on different levels of the spectrum... no it's not fair to make some one sit on a tac for any reason (showing that something can be even chance and still end up unfair) and then bridge fromt here that we just disagree on at what point random become fair....

it is because others (you can tell me if it was you or not) didn't understand the difference between "I use random rolls in game, but not at character creations" and "I never let the dice matter"

And you're continuing to denigrate me in #457. That doesn't look like the behavior of someone who's just defending himself, that looks like someone who's trying to "win" an argument by attacking.

I again attacked the idea that "Some people would like a game that makes you sit on tacs" as the biggest example in this thread of not being resnable...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

because you jumped from "hey some people like rolling stats" to "Some people might like to play a game that causes them to sit on a tac" and used the defense that works for statement A as if it also defended statement B...

You're misquoting me.

Even if I were, that wouldn't change the fact that you're on offense: trying to tear down others instead of just defending your own opinions as you've claimed.

Admittedly, I don't really care if you think I'm having badwrongfun--I'm perfectly happy to ignore you--but I do think your recent posts are a good example of what Sacrosanct was talking about: people who aren't content to tolerate disagreement.

I won't be responding to you again on this thread.

it is because others (you can tell me if it was you or not) didn't understand the difference between "I use random rolls in game, but not at character creations" and "I never let the dice matter"

That wasn't me. I almost jumped in on your side of the argument on that point because spinozajack clearly misunderstood what you said (you're very anti-fudging and he thought you were pro-fudging), but I wound up keeping my mouth shut instead.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I allow point buy or rolling, so I'm not sure if you're referring to what I wrote, but don't mischaracterize it. I said there exists such a thing as immature D&D players, who throw tantrums and throw their dice when they roll poorly, which is ironic considering they are playing a game with dice rolling as a certain feature and agent of resolution, and seem fundamentally ill-equipped either intellectually or emotionally to handle it.

Those are the types of problem players that I eject from my table, and not you, nor anyone else can tell me or will convince me that I shouldn't do that. I'm not here to babysit crybabies, I'm in my late 30s and don't tolerate childish behavior from anyone I choose to spend time with, during D&D or not.

see again... instead of talking about any of the examples of "Hey lets all be adults and talk about me not having fun because I feel overshadowed" you jump to "crybabies" and "throw dice" please tell me any anti roll stats that have ever said that is how we would react?

And yes, I get invited to play with many gamers all the time, and invite others to play in my games. Ill behavior is something I distance myself from. And yes, in my lengthy experience, I've learned to spot such problem players early based on numerous cues, one of which is the idea that the game must be "fair" in outcome when dice are rolled.

here comes the some insults... infact so bad that I can't belive it's a mistake. You equate someone saying "Hey I don't think rolling stats always ends up with a fair spread" or someone saying "I'm not having fun here my stats are far lower then his" with those cry babies... even if they are perfectly adult and polite in how they raise the issue...

That is total nonsense and that kind of thinking, is not only irrational, but fundamentally goes against the entire purpose of what D&D means.

and now you claim that my perfed way to play is 'fundamentally against D&D' so how do you think that would not lead to issues?

If you hate dice rolling, go play another game. Seriously, there are plenty of diceless games out there.

I don't want to play a diceless game, in fact I play D&D. and OWoD most of the time now adays, one is a d20 system the other a dice pool system... the only way to play Owod is to do point buy, and one way to play D&D is with point but... but BOTH use DICE for everything else... so lets try this again... what makes me playing D&D any less?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You're misquoting me.

Even if I were, that wouldn't change the fact that you're on offense: trying to tear down others instead of just defending your own opinions as you've claimed.

Admittedly, I don't really care if you think I'm having badwrongfun--I'm perfectly happy to ignore you--but I do think your recent posts are a good example of what Sacrosanct was talking about: people who aren't content to tolerate disagreement.

I won't be responding to you again on this thread.

I did not misquote you, you defended the idea of 1 roll making you sit on a tac as if it was rolling for stats instead of being resnoble and admititing that random isn't always fair...


rolling CAN be fair... it's the outcome that matters.

example: if we sit down with 5 players and they all roll just a bit above average then they even out (even if it isn't the exact same numbers) on the other hand if 2 roll well above average, one rolls slightly above average, and the other two roll well bellow average, it could end up being very unfair to the last two

 

[billd91]

I should start a poll.

Show of hands, folks! Who thinks making a random person at your table sit on tacks for the evening is fair!

Fortunately, rolling lower on your stats than someone else at the table is nothing like sitting on tacks for the evening. I'd hate to see any kind of false equivalencies enter this discussion...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

As for compromise, if the house rules were really "whatever method you want", I would have no problem whatsoever. I would look at the stats of the various PCs, write down stats that I think are comparable, and ask the DM if they looked reasonable, which boils down to point buy by other means.

I am going to go back to my first post...

the most freeing experience I ever had was when I pick stats I wanted without touching d6's or point buy... the game was supposed to be roll 4d6 drop the lowest roll 7 times drop the lowest, then place where you want... but I knew more then half the players would cheat. I showed up game one and the first thing I heard was how bad my best friend rolled, so the DM let him reroll, now another player was getting ready to reroll... mean while the two I knew would cheat had way awesome stats.

I showed the DM my stats and he said "hey those are good did you really roll them" I said "no, just picked what I wanted" he didn't know what to say. I got asked 4 or 5 times over the first two games and I was always honest. Its not like it was un fair to anyone, I had far from the best stats in the game, I just didn't see the reason to lie about it...

so to all of you who are pro rolling, if I sat down at your table, and the other 3 players rolled and had these stats:
1) 18,16,16,15,13,12
2) 17,17,17,15,11,11
3) 17,16,16,16,10,9

and I said hey, I'll just said "Instead of rolling, I'll just take 18.16.16.14.12.11" what would you say?

 

[billd91]

rolling CAN be fair... it's the outcome that matters.

example: if we sit down with 5 players and they all roll just a bit above average then they even out (even if it isn't the exact same numbers) on the other hand if 2 roll well above average, one rolls slightly above average, and the other two roll well bellow average, it could end up being very unfair to the last two

But the outcome of point buying stats can be disparate as well. So is point buy also one of the methods that can be fair but may not be depending on the outcome?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Fortunately, rolling lower on your stats than someone else at the table is nothing like sitting on tacks for the evening. I'd hate to see any kind of false equivalencies enter this discussion...

it isn't an equivalence at all... it's just to show that we all agree being equal chance is not the same as fair... then we all can agree we just disagree on the amount of randomness is fair... the point is someone "Like me" can say I dislike random stats but have no problem with rolling saves and attacks in balanced encounters...

 

[billd91]

so to all of you who are pro rolling, if I sat down at your table, and the other 3 players rolled and had these stats:
1) 18,16,16,15,13,12
2) 17,17,17,15,11,11
3) 17,16,16,16,10,9

and I said hey, I'll just said "Instead of rolling, I'll just take 18.16.16.14.12.11" what would you say?

No. You're going to have to roll them just like everyone else. There's more to rolling the stats than just the final values.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

All scores of all characters looking equal on paper is verisimilitude breaking.