D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Lanefan]

So the main question I think has to be addressed to decide how you want to do it in your game, is where do you included choice, and why? Traditionally, you don't pick your ability scores, or you hit points, or the spells you learn on level up, but you do get to pick your race and class.

You do, though tables are provided for those who want to roll for species and-or class as well.

Further, the chooseable-species list is limited by where the party is in the setting. Humans are always chooseable, but after that you can only choose things that live "in the neighbourhood", so to speak. What this means is, for example, that if there's no Dwarvish lands within a thousand miles of where you'll be joining (or starting) the party, Dwarf isn't chooseable as your species - you have to roll for it and might very well not get it. But if you're close to Dwarven lands, Dwarf will be chooseable.

There's only a very few regions in my setting where all the major species would be chooseable.

With just those variables, I think race stands out as an odd one to pick. If you only got to pick your class, then there would be some consistency. Here is a random person you get, now make of them what you can. But why do you get to choose to be born an elf, but not necessarily a graceful one? It's a weird agency insertion point.

Interesting point.

Back when, species was something that had to be rolled for in our games - you rolled until you got two different options, then chose one of them. Over time, this slowly got relaxed.

I get nothing out of playing unequal characters, unless that's an explicitly presented and accepted part of the plan, and there is a reason that works for me. So if I'm presented with a situation where a party of characters is going to have vastly different roles in a narrative focus, like the Fellowship of the Ring, then I might be interested.

The Fellowship is, in some ways at least, exactly what I expect a typical D&D party to look like (though usually with not quite so many Hobbits ) once it gets a few levels in. Different abilities, different levels, yet with everyone still able to contirbute even though each character's end result might not be the same.

But if it's a game where the goal is to face challenges and grow in power, everyone not starting at the same level is a complete disincentive to my participation. I'm mostly referring to long-term play though. I'm game for just about anything for a one-shot lasting 4 or less sessions.

I'm only referring to long term play. And over the long term, things tend to change. A character who starts out seemingly very powerful in relation to its peers might hit rough times and end up the weakest in the party. Flip side: a character who started out without much going for it could end up a superstar (these are my favourites!).

And in my game, levels come and go - yes, level drain is a thing. Items and wealth come and go, and a good ol' meltdown can set you back a long way (and see below).

I can't recall the precise system I used for the equal random generation (and the next time I'll improve it), but I can remember bits.

-I had a number that the raw random ability scores eventually needed to add up to. The stats were intended to be high for campaign-specific reasons, so I believe it was something like 80 or 82.
-We started with everyone rolling six ability scores. It was probably 4d6 drop lowest.
-After that, there was a cycle of rolling a d6 to target one of the ability scores, and then (I think) rolling another d6 to add or subtract from it, based on whether the ability score total was above or below the target total value.

Something like that. It was a little too messy, but I only needed it once and it generated some interesting results. The point buy option was a more typical 5e point buy, with a few more points. Because there is an increasing cost with point buy, and you can't efficiently get stats very low, the way it worked out was if you wanted to keep your stats pretty close to each other (hovering around 14), your ability scores could add up to a higher total than the random method. But, the random method could let you start with higher values that you couldn't otherwise buy with point buy. This meant you wouldn't want to take one of the random values unless it was giving you a wide stat range, because you could otherwise do better buying stats. As I said, I consider it a success because I had people carefully consider it and take both options.

Sounds complex, but if it worked out for you, all is good!

The luck angle is an interesting idea. I'm sure there is some sort of deeper analysis that could go on here. The way I experience it, I want luck to mostly have a short-term effect, not a permanent one. Permanent effects are more desirable to me as the results of consistent choices over a long span of time. Sure, in the real world some bad luck can ruin your life, but I don't find that a particularly desirable thing to bring into my entertainment.

Several things here.

First, IME - and with lots of number-crunching to back it up - initial stat roll average isn't much of a predictor of how long a character's career will be.

Second, while a run of bad luck can ruin you the game probably provides more opportunity to bounce back than does real life. My currently-active Thief is proof of this - she came in at lower level than anyone else in the party and then, on first meeting the group, promptly lost all her magic to a Deck of Many Things (meanwhile, some other characters cleaned up!). That was 15 sessions ago or so, and she's still going, slowly re-equipping herself and finding ways to contribute wherever she can.

Third, while bad luck can ruin your life the flip side is that good luck - which also rears its head now and then - can springboard you to great things.

And I'm the kind of player who's willing to go through a lot more of a "grueling" play experience than anyone else I play with, so that's saying something for me.

But again, it's all about knowing what the play goal is, and figuring out efficient systems to provide it, rather than fighting systems that are getting in the way.

My preference is a system that just kinda sits there, and gets/doesn't get in the way about equally no matter what you try to do with it.

 

[ECMO3]

I find gameplay is a lot better and more diverse if you roll abilities individually. This avoids the tropes of the 8 strength Archers and Rogues and 8 intelligence Sorcerers etc. This makes the game a lot more flavorful in my experience.

The PHB doesn't let you do that because you can move stats around, so even if you use the 4d6 method you still have a dump stat.

We have used several different homebrew methods, one modified from the 1E "Uneathed Arcana" book (which was official rules in 1E) and leads to very high stats in general.

A second alternative I use and really like is start off by picking your primary and secondary stat - For your primary roll 9d6 keep 3 with a minimum score of 14 (this gives you an average of 16), pick your secondary stat and roll 8d6 keep 3 with minimum of 12 (average 14), then roll 4d6 for your other 4 stats and you roll them in order-roll 4d6 for strength, write that in strength, roll 4d6 for dexterity, write that in dexterity...... If your total for all 6 stats is less than 72 you raise your lowest stat by 1. You keep raising the lowest stat by 1 until the total equals 72, if you have 2 stats tied for lowest you choose the one you raise. Then you apply your racial and feat bonuses where you want.

This results in an average a little above point buy and a floor that is very close to point buy and since you have a minimum 14 raw score in your main stat you can always apply the +2 and start with 16. Even though the average is higher than point buy the characters are not usually any stronger because you can't strategically optimize, your archer can't choose to dump strength and intelligence to have a 12 Wisdom for a good perception. You might end up with a 6 wisdom, a 12 strength and a 17 Intelligence.

With racial bonuses, this also results in a character that can get any 2 stats automatically high enough to multiclass.

Finally this can make Standard Humans very attractive if you have a lot of odd rolls.

I do prefer averages for hit points though.

 

[Horwath]

I find gameplay is a lot better and more diverse if you roll abilities individually. This avoids the tropes of the 8 strength Archers and Rogues and 8 intelligence Sorcerers etc. This makes the game a lot more flavorful in my experience.

The PHB doesn't let you do that because you can move stats around, so even if you use the 4d6 method you still have a dump stat.

We have used several different homebrew methods, one modified from the 1E "Uneathed Arcana" book (which was official rules in 1E) and leads to very high stats in general.

A second alternative I use and really like is start off by picking your primary and secondary stat - For your primary roll 9d6 keep 3 with a minimum score of 14 (this gives you an average of 16), pick your secondary stat and roll 8d6 keep 3 with minimum of 12 (average 14), then roll 4d6 for your other 4 stats and you roll them in order-roll 4d6 for strength, write that in strength, roll 4d6 for dexterity, write that in dexterity...... If your total for all 6 stats is less than 72 you raise your lowest stat by 1. You keep raising the lowest stat by 1 until the total equals 72, if you have 2 stats tied for lowest you choose the one you raise. Then you apply your racial and feat bonuses where you want.

This results in an average a little above point buy and a floor that is very close to point buy and since you have a minimum 14 raw score in your main stat you can always apply the +2 and start with 16. Even though the average is higher than point buy the characters are not usually any stronger because you can't strategically optimize, your archer can't choose to dump strength and intelligence to have a 12 Wisdom for a good perception. You might end up with a 6 wisdom, a 12 strength and a 17 Intelligence.

With racial bonuses, this also results in a character that can get any 2 stats automatically high enough to multiclass.

Finally this can make Standard Humans very attractive if you have a lot of odd rolls.

I do prefer averages for hit points though.

Or you can increase point buy pool to 32(PF1 style) or 35 pts. And keep 15 as max to buy.

this will keep primary/secondary stat at more or less same value, but you would have extra points for your otherwise dump stats.
A 12 str&cha wizard will not break anything in comparison to 8 str&cha, but the character will feel more competent in various things.

 

[ECMO3]

Or you can increase point buy pool to 32(PF1 style) or 35 pts. And keep 15 as max to buy.

this will keep primary/secondary stat at more or less same value, but you would have extra points for your otherwise dump stats.
A 12 str&cha wizard will not break anything in comparison to 8 str&cha, but the character will feel more competent in various things.

Whether dump is 8 or dump is 12 you still get dump stats.

With rolling you often get high rolls where you would have put your dump and that really breaks the optimization stereotypes and tropes.

 

[Horwath]

Whether dump is 8 or dump is 12 you still get dump stats.

With rolling you often get high rolls where you would have put your dump and that really breaks the optimization stereotypes and tropes.

Yes, my 18 str, 8 dex or con wizard will surely break the stereotype, by being 100% dead before 2nd level.

 

[Lanefan]

Whether dump is 8 or dump is 12 you still get dump stats.

With rolling you often get high rolls where you would have put your dump and that really breaks the optimization stereotypes and tropes.

I see what you're getting at, and don't entirely disagree; but though I'm all for random rolling I still don't mind the idea of being able to rearrange your rolls to better suit what you have in mind. So for example if I want to play a low-wisdom airhead of a character I'd like to be able to stick the 7 I just rolled into Wisdom.

The other thing that can really shatter some stereotypes and tropes (and hopes and expectations, sometimes!) is random-rolling for things like character age, height, and weight.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, my 18 str, 8 dex or con wizard will surely break the stereotype, by being 100% dead before 2nd level.

Nah, that's pretty stereotypical.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I scratch my head when some claim a -1 to dex or con is unplayable. The d20 causes way more pain than a 5% deviation from average, IMO and IME.

 

[Oofta]

I scratch my head when some claim a -1 to dex or con is unplayable. The d20 causes way more pain than a 5% deviation from average, IMO and IME.

A -1 dex to a PC that can wear heavy armor and doesn't rely on dex as primary ability is negligible. A -1 to con? Compared to what? Most of the time I'll shoot for a +2 bonus from con. That 3 HP difference per level adds up quickly, especially when you only get 4 HP per level. I've seen it be pretty harmful to players that set up their PCs that way because they don't plan on being front line.

Although maybe that's just because I tend to have the opposition flank and attack the squishies now and then because why shouldn't the archers and casters of the world risk their hides once in a while?

 

[Horwath]

A -1 dex to a PC that can wear heavy armor and doesn't rely on dex as primary ability is negligible. A -1 to con? Compared to what? Most of the time I'll shoot for a +2 bonus from con. That 3 HP difference per level adds up quickly, especially when you only get 4 HP per level. I've seen it be pretty harmful to players that set up their PCs that way because they don't plan on being front line.

Although maybe that's just because I tend to have the opposition flank and attack the squishies now and then because why shouldn't the archers and casters of the world risk their hides once in a while?

Agree 100%

having Con 8 and becoming adventurer is suicidal(well, more suicidal than average adventurer), even 10 is very low.

12 Con is bare minimum for any character, no matter how careful you are, sometimes you will get surprised and hit, and you need to "tank" at least one round of bashing. 5th level wizard with 8 Con has 17 HP, every CR 5 monster will chew through that like it's nothing.

14 Con is preferable, 16 if you can spare the score for it.