D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[GMforPowergamers]

No. If you agree to the dice ruling method and it comes up bad for you then it is not okay to complain.

what if I voice my concern that there will be unbalanced and as such un fun results, then get told by the DM it is how he is doing it... just to be proved right when it leads to unbalanced unfun results?

People only complain when the character they feel is too weak.

yup... someone is always on top and someone is always on the bottom, but I disagree about it always being the bottom complaining... in my first 4e game the 4 players who started the game where clearly rank able in stats 1,2,3,4 and the most complaints came from #2, seconded by #4... and even then #4 just wanted to be allowed to take the default array because it was a huge power boost to his character...

They never complain when the dice work in their favor. If you don't want to take the chance then don't agree to that method of character generation.

depending on the DM there may be no 'agree' its there way or the highway...

In 2002 I played a Ranger that had one attribute (Charisma) higher then the party's Wizard. This was 3e in which the Ranger class was probably the weakest out of the PHB and Wizard probably the strongest. It was an awesome character. At no time was my character worthless or was I just sitting back doing nothing feeling outclassed. My character was completely under powered but that didn't matter. I was gaming with friends and we had a blast.

OK, my friend Tony once played a Druid who at level 3 got blinded and hit for BOTH str and wis DRAIN in 3e... he went the rest of the 8 level campaign blind, an 8 str and a 13 wis (his casting stat) but he used his wolf companion as a seeing eye dog, and homebrew a feat to get a second animal companion...a hawk. It was a blast and the best character he ever played... he never complained about any of it because it was fun... notice the difference here though... IT WAS FUN... no one complains when it's fun you complain when it isn't fun...


in 3.0 we had Kurt play moonbeam, a half drow from the Forgotten realms book. He had a 16 str, and every other stat 11 or less (I can't rember if INt or CHa was the 5, but one was) he played a feral ranger/barbarian and loved it. Again no complaints

I have over the year seen Kurt and Tony BOTH play far more powerful and less handy capped characters... and complain. The complaint isn't "Hey I can't play this and have fun" it's "I am trying to play this and it isn't fun."

I guess if you want to sit back and bitch and complain about the game is unfair then go for it. That's not the type of person I'd want at my gaming table.

yes because if someone dares say "Hey this fun game isn't fun for me" they should be asked to leave... Maybe you should instead ask "Hey how can we make it more fun."

 

[Crothian]

what if I voice my concern that there will be unbalanced and as such un fun results, then get told by the DM it is how he is doing it... just to be proved right when it leads to unbalanced unfun results?

It is your choice to be in that game. The DM tells you upfront what the character generation rules are and you agree to them if you stay in the game. But as you even say with your other examples some times the unbalanced characters are fun to play.

depending on the DM there may be no 'agree' its there way or the highway...

Then don't play with that DM. I encourage players to walk away from games that they don't agree with. Just like I encourage DMs to not ask a player back who is disruptive to their game.

yes because if someone dares say "Hey this fun game isn't fun for me" they should be asked to leave... Maybe you should instead ask "Hey how can we make it more fun."

It depends on the player and the people involved. Sometimes you need to do what is good for the player and sometimes you need to do what is good for the group because they are not always the same thing.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is your choice to be in that game. The DM tells you upfront what the character generation rules are and you agree to them if you stay in the game. But as you even say with your other examples some times the unbalanced characters are fun to play.



Then don't play with that DM. I encourage players to walk away from games that they don't agree with. Just like I encourage DMs to not ask a player back who is disruptive to their game.



It depends on the player and the people involved. Sometimes you need to do what is good for the player and sometimes you need to do what is good for the group because they are not always the same thing.

I play with friends not random people 9 out of 10 times (yea we get newbies every few years, and every year I go to cons but D&D is rarely what I play at cons)

so I think we are just too different, if you play with people you don't care if you ever see again I guess that your advise is ok (Although I do feel a little antisocial) in general I have always been more of the "Lets make this fun for everyone" kind of guy.

of course games CAN be fun when unbalanced, they can also be unfun when balanced, we are discussing UNFUN with the leading cause being UNBALANCE... do you know people who have fun but complain anyway?

 

[Crothian]

so I think we are just too different, if you play with people you don't care if you ever see again I guess that your advise is ok (Although I do feel a little antisocial) in general I have always been more of the "Lets make this fun for everyone" kind of guy.

Actually, my current group has been together for over a decade. We have had weddings and births. We have been together through good times and bad. We are all about having fun for everyone. We don't have these problems. The last time I had a player complain about dice rolls for character generation has to be at least 20 years ago when I and the people I played with were young and immature. For our own games now we don't use point buy of dice rolls usually. For a game like DCC we use dice rolls but that's part of the fun of that game. For quite a while I just let the players choose their own ability scores for their characters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually, my current group has been together for over a decade. We have had weddings and births. We have been together through good times and bad. We are all about having fun for everyone. We don't have these problems. The last time I had a player complain about dice rolls for character generation has to be at least 20 years ago when I and the people I played with were young and immature. For our own games now we don't use point buy of dice rolls usually. For a game like DCC we use dice rolls but that's part of the fun of that game. For quite a while I just let the players choose their own ability scores for their characters.

you have me confused... you said if someone complained they were not having fun you would tell them to leave... but these are 20 year friendships you would kick out over not making a slight tweek? this goes WAY beyond stats... no matter what reason if one of my friends (about 18 years is the longest and some only 6) said "Hey I'm not likeing this game because X, Y and Z" I would try to make changes to have that person have fun... but your advice (remembering you are talking about playing with these people for 2 years longer then my longest friendship) is "If you don't like it get out!"??????

how do you handle people raiseing objections? I don't understand, you can't tell me in 20 year no one ever said "Hey rule X is no fun can we change it?" I mean in this case it's stats, and I can get that one rule never came up, but it is no diffren then every other rule...

 

[Crothian]

you have me confused... you said if someone complained they were not having fun you would tell them to leave... but these are 20 year friendships you would kick out over not making a slight tweek? this goes WAY beyond stats... no matter what reason if one of my friends (about 18 years is the longest and some only 6) said "Hey I'm not likeing this game because X, Y and Z" I would try to make changes to have that person have fun... but your advice (remembering you are talking about playing with these people for 2 years longer then my longest friendship) is "If you don't like it get out!"??????

These are my friends. We don't always see eye to eye. Our friendship is not gaming. Gaming is just one of many activities we all do together. We have had people leave the group. It happens but that doesn't end out friendship.

Now though you are changing the parameters of the conversation. Before I was saying that it we set the grounds to be something and everyone agreed to them. Then if someone does whine and decides that the rules should not apply to them as they agreed then there would be an issue. If we sat down and has a mature discussion about it like we do then the problem would get solved. But I'm not going to arbitrarily change rules because they work for six people just fine but the seventh decides after the fact that he doesn't like it because the dice were bad.

how do you handle people raiseing objections? I don't understand, you can't tell me in 20 year no one ever said "Hey rule X is no fun can we change it?" I mean in this case it's stats, and I can get that one rule never came up, but it is no diffren then every other rule...

We talk it over. We don't complain we don't whine. We raise the issue at the appropriate time that is usually in between games. But I have found through the internet that this doesn't happen in each group and sometimes people need to realize that leaving the game is perfectly fine option. It is just gaming in the end.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

These are my friends. We don't always see eye to eye. Our friendship is not gaming. Gaming is just one of many activities we all do together. We have had people leave the group. It happens but that doesn't end out friendship.

some of them I see outside of my 2 nights gaming (plus cons) but most I do not, I don't findmyself having time to 'do stuff' as often as I did 20 years ago, I envey you that you have enough free time to do other things as well...

Now though you are changing the parameters of the conversation.

no I'm not I'm just not letting you use loaded words to describe someone raiseing an objection...

Before I was saying that it we set the grounds to be something and everyone agreed to them.

no body in this thread argued "I like rolling until X," we all argued "This is why we don't like it" so I can't imagine what makes you think your example of 6 guys sitting down all wanting to roll then 1 person after rolls saying "No I don't want to roll" matters when that is not what anyone said.

If we sat down and has a mature discussion about it like we do then the problem would get solved.

so what are you argueing against when you tell people not to complain exactly?

But I'm not going to arbitrarily change rules because they work for six people just fine but the seventh decides after the fact that he doesn't like it because the dice were bad.

very few people complain 'because the dice went badly once' infact I bet you can't find that example except by me saying that is why I don't like rolling is when Pro roll for stat guys want rerolls...

We talk it over. We don't complain we don't whine.

how do you know the problem if no one complains?

com·plain


/kəmˈplān/


verb

verb: complain; 3rd person present: complains; past tense: complained; past participle: complained; gerund or present participle: complaining




express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event.
"local authorities complained that they lacked sufficient resources"

synonyms: protest, grumble, whine, bleat, carp, cavil, grouse, make a fuss; More
object, speak out, criticize, find fault;
informalkick up a fuss, raise a stink, bellyache, moan, snivel, beef, bitch, sound off, gripe, kvetch

"his dogs were always roaming until someone finally complained"

•state that one is suffering from (a pain or other symptom of illness).
"her husband began to complain of headaches"
•state a grievance.

We raise the issue at the appropriate time that is usually in between games.

um... that is complaining... raiseing the issue is pretty close to the definition of the word...

But I have found through the internet that this doesn't happen in each group and sometimes people need to realize that leaving the game is perfectly fine option. It is just gaming in the end.

It is no more or less 'just gaming' then going to the bar with friends, or playing cards, or playing basket ball... if you and 7 friend meet every Tuesday to play D&D and me and my 7 friends meet every Tuesday to play poker, and another person and there 7 friends meet every Tuesday to go to Karokie and drink... it is still 8 friends hanging out... if one of those friends says "Hey we normally do X but I want to do it Y way because I;m not having fun" in any of the groups and one persons ansewer is "Its only X just leave then" I'm betteing in all 3 groups that there would be hard feelings...

 

[redrick]

Jumping onto a 6-month long thread I haven't finished reading...

I love random rolls because I like letting the dice inform my character, instead of bringing in a set concept and trying to get the mechanics to match it. That's just me and the kind of characters I like to play.

On the other hand, being 8 levels into a 5e game with random rolls, I'll say that it doesn't seem the best for this system. The feat mechanics don't work as well when a character starts with 18 or even 20 in their prime stat. Power level disparities can be irritating if players (human beings that they are) ever get into the competitive bs. Ultimately, I think the game plays best when starting with the power level set by the standard array.

So, yesterday, I "rolled" up a character for a new campaign. I started with 8 in every stat and rolled some d6. For each die, I bought an extra point for that stat. I repeated until I'd used up the 27 point buy. The result was a random array (no reordering allowed), but within the narrow power range of the standard array. Perfect!

The character ended up being totally different from a character I would have built from scratch. I can't wait for him to hit the table on Tuesday.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No. If you agree to the dice ruling method and it comes up bad for you then it is not okay to complain. People only complain when the character they feel is too weak. They never complain when the dice work in their favor. If you don't want to take the chance then don't agree to that method of character generation. .

This. I'm a day late in responding to GMFPG's quote of mine, but this is basically it. The problem with your analogy GM is that you're missing the very important fact that everyone has the same options and same choice of what they want. To fix your analogy to be correct, it would be:

Everyone gets a choice to get 3 pieces of pizza, or you can go through the line and take a chance that you you can get 4, but you might get 2. If you all choose the safe 3, and Jimmy takes a risk and gets 4, complaining that it isn't fair isn't a very adult thing to do. It would be like me complaining that Joe got a better return on his investment than me when I kept my $ in a bond and he invested it in a stock that took off. It would be childish of me to blame Joe for my lack of risk taking choices.


*edit* And if you all are told what method would be used and agree to it, then you don't have a right to complain either because everyone was given the same opportunity. I.e., the very definition of fairness. The result of something does not determine if something is fair or not. It's the opportunity that does. And as mentioned, if you don't like that, then there's nothing stopping you from playing with a DM who uses rules you do like, or from DMing a game yourself.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I really don't understand this implication that it's a personal failing to not want to roll because weaker characters aren't as fun, or that you're a bad player if you don't have fun playing a character that's weaker than the rest of the party. It strikes me as extremly myopic to argue, "Well, I rolled badly and had fun one time, therefore everyone else must be able to roll badly and still have fun in every case for every game." I mean, that's pretty much exactly the kind of thinking that inspires comments like, "The plural of anecdote is not data," or "The exception that proves the rule."