Ars - Is it just me?

[GhostShip Blue]

Is it just me or is Ars better named "Well you could, but..."?

So, my gaming group loves Ars Magica.

I do not.


They swear it's one of the most flexible games ever. Uh, kind of... maybe?

The "off the rack" spell 'Confusion of the Numbed Will' is Rego Mentem level 15. Affects one person at a range of Eye(sight) until the sun sets. I want to create a spell to reduce the weight of a soldier's armor by 50% at a range of voice. Rego Terram 25. To figure it out, Lab total of 50?

I get the notion that spontaneous casting is what we'd expect of spell casters who reached out and bent the strands of fate and power. Great, so let's do it. Except it's almost always bound to fail, unless it's an effect far less spectacular than "Billy Joe's Snap of Tinder Lighting". I get that the system for designing spells is robust, shouldn't there be some chance of - I dunno, success? - somewhere along the way? As close as I can tell there is not.

What I do like is the idea of playing the troupe. Now, if mages didn't suck! I swear, I play companions and grogs quite happily but mages are excruciating. "Well you could, but..."

 

[ShadowDenizen]

The Hermetic Magi are generally creatrues of habit, and are pretty hide-bound when trying something outside their specialty, though it is always possible to attempt.

There are many parameters to spells, so lowering one of the less important parementers by a small amount makes it more likely you'll succeed. (I don't have my book handy, but what happens if you reduce the time parameter from "Sun" to the next step down in your example?)

Alternately, check out and start with the base guidelines for Form & Technique and go from there, and see what fits; I bet you can get that spell under a 25. (Mentem, IIRC, has higher base guidelines, for instance, than Terram, so that right there gives you some leeway in your spell creation.)

Of course, in a last resort situtaion, you also use situtation modifieres (Check the list in the Corebook, IIRC; some "accoutrements" give you bonuses when using different Forms/Techniques.) OR, you could bust out some Vis to get that quick immediate bonus to put you over the top....

But, Spontaneous casting (due to the creation guidelines) is actually the exception, rather than the norm in most troupes I've played in. It's EXTREMLY hard to spontaneous-cast unless you're REALLY specialized in the fomrm & technique, or are trying for a low-level effect. What the system does do well is encurage you to think of "Cool Effects", and then encourages you to CREATE that spell in the lab for future use, whcih actually REDUCES the difficulty in using it later.)

 

[GhostShip Blue]

Diameter is about 2 minutes. Which is pretty useless for reducing the weight of armor. It's Terram, which you would think is easier than Mentem. It is. Sometimes. However, if the spell effects metal the modifier is an additional +2. So, in order to create a spell to reduce the weight of 1 soldier's armor and metal weapons by 50% you need a lab total of 50. Rego at 10, Menetem at 10 and Magic Theory at 10 (Someone check the XP requirements for all that) working with a lab assistant is 36, 14 points shy. Throw in a SCHWEET aura of 6. And we still need 4 pawns of Vis (preferably Terram).

Just so my shield grog doesn't get tired toting his armor and is a little fresher on the charge. Perdo Corpus at level 15 and a couple of points in Penetration and problems are generally solved, call it "Finger of Magnum Doom". Try to throw a rock with Rego Terram and the math gets all wonky again. Perdo Terram do dig a hole at range under the enemy, hell spont that.

Explain to me again where the "encourages creating cool spells" comes in...

I love my group, really I do every single one of them, but gods why they like this game I cannot fathom. I want to like Ars, but it's broken. I'm sure they feel the same way about me and Champions - I can bend that system to do whatever I want. I get it, the design theory, what's going on, how things interact. Ars, confounds me. Every little thing about it leaves me scratching my head.

 

[Nagol]

I'm basing my answers of editions 2 through so I may be off a little.

Basic spontaneous magic is underwhelming, but as the arts are mastered it becomes a constant source of minor effect.

To gain power with spontaneous magic requires serious investment -- in traits like Improved Spontaneous Casting or through the expenditure of vis in the field. In one very memorable encounter a reasonably accomplished mage was being pursued by a slightly magical army when she cut loose with 3-round improved spontaneous magic and as much vis as she could use in ReMu/Terram. She converted the desert to shards of glass and launched them upwards and outwards to a range of Sight (level 60+ spell in the end). The army died. Shards were raining down for minutes afterward from the heights they reached.

 

[GhostShip Blue]

Sponting, if it works, is cool. It almost never works. Not sure of the casting total, but it gets cut by 80% (casting total/5) when sponting. To generate a level 60 effect from 1/5 of your base, you need a LOT of exploding 1's. Not going to see that often.

However, sponting isn't really my issue.

If the idea is to go to the lab and create spells, why doesn't that work. Even the slightest spell requires 4 seasons of idle time, studying books to raise your Arts scores, another three season improving the lab, two more seasons to earn the cash for an assistant, Another couple of seasons to adventure and find Vis, and then you can experiment for another 2 seasons, and you've got a spell that will protect the metal equipment of 5 soldiers from rusting. Until nightfall.

Take an off the rack spell, and you're golden. Go to the lab and build one, the way the game "encourages" you to, and best of luck - "Well, you could, but..."

I realize that the idea is to enforce hermit wizards, toiling away in labs, isolated from people, while the Companions and mages out looking for Vis, craft stories.

Which gets me back to my original thought, maybe I should just stick to Companions. Still doesn't mean it's not broken, just means there's a way to close your eyes to it.

 

[Nagol]

The mage in my anecdote didn't roll a one. Spontaneous is divided by 5 only if you don't power the spell with Fatigue. If you do, it's divided by 2.

IIRC, Improved spontaneous magic dropped the divisor to 1 after 3 rounds of casting. I don't think the virtue carried over after 3rd edition.

 

[GhostShip Blue]

I've only played 5th and confess to having only the barest understanding of the game's internal philosophy. The mechanics I'm clear on, but the underlying rationale escapes me. Every time I think I understand it there's some obtuse (but reasonable within the game's internal logic) reason that things don't actually work that way. At least as far a magi are concerned. Red Caps I can wrap my head around. Magi not so much.

I know that "modern design" tends towards mechanics should enforce setting, which is great if there's some kind of 'logos' that follows from the 'ethos'. It's perhaps more fair to say that I can't unravel it than it isn't there.

 

[Nagol]

Hermetic mages are best at making magic potions. Then permanent magic items. Then casting formulaic spells. Then learning spells from books. Then spontaneous magic. Then anything else.

Some of the logic/patterns for magic change with each edition -- either to adjust for balance issues or because the owners changed and the new designers had different takes on how easy/difficult something should be.

 

[Dethklok]

It's perhaps more fair to say that I can't unravel it than it isn't there.

GhostShip, you seem to me to be troubled not by confusion about Ars Magica, but a desire not to believe what you sense to be true about it.

If it helps, I do like the game for all its awkwardness. And to be fair, the overwhelming majority of games are designed with far less clarity and forethought than gamers believe has gone into them. This is, my experience, the real problem - people become emotionally invested in their games, and try to defend even their most obvious flaws. I believe that the wisest thing is to accept, and then ignore the problems by closing your eyes to them while you play.

 

[Jhaelen]

If the idea is to go to the lab and create spells, why doesn't that work. Even the slightest spell requires 4 seasons of idle time, studying books to raise your Arts scores, another three season improving the lab, two more seasons to earn the cash for an assistant, Another couple of seasons to adventure and find Vis, and then you can experiment for another 2 seasons, and you've got a spell that will protect the metal equipment of 5 soldiers from rusting. Until nightfall.

Well, game time is measured in seasons for a reason
In addition to what has already been mentioned, you should realize that a default Magus character has only just finished her apprenticeship. You seem to expect a different power level, which would be fine if your group agreed to start play with older Magi.
I have actually played a Magus that specialized in spontaneous casting and it worked rather well. Level 10 effects were definitely in reach (though that was in 3rd.ed.).
Considering your spell example, maybe it would be worthwhile to look at different ways to achieve your goals. If your intent is to reduce the exhaustion of your grogs, then maybe a Corpus effect would be easier.

Which gets me back to my original thought, maybe I should just stick to Companions.

This might actually be a good idea. Ars Magica also offers plenty of hedge traditions and supernatural characters (e.g. a Faerie companion) that take your Magus slot. Many of them have abilities that work similar to spontaneous magic without being as restricted as the Hermetic variant.

Maybe I should also note that most of the time we didn't actually play our Magus characters in adventures: Typically, only one player would play his Magus, and the rest played companions and/or grogs. Magi tend to prefer spending their time in their labs. So it makes actually sense to focus on your companion character and make sure you enjoy playing her.