Art of the Peel

[Regicide]

It should go more like this: Paladin issues his Divine Challenge, he and the monster trade blows for a round or two until they've both hit eachother. The monster now has a vested interest in finishing off the Paladin, because if he doesn't, the damage he's done to the pally, and all his actions up to this point have been 'wasted.'

Except of course, a) Probably missed the paladin so no damage done, or b) paladin got healed, so no damage done, or c) monster has an INT higher than 3 and realizes a+b will happen so never even goes after the paladin in the first place.

The solution is for DMs to play monsters like they're dumber than dirt, otherwise no monster in their right mind would engage the party let alone try to kill the hardest to hit and kill person in the party first.

Despite the kludgey and entirely irksome death-beams-with-no-save that paladins throw off, 4E has not mechanically solved the problem of making tanks, sorry, "defenders", sticky.

 

[FadedC]

Except of course, a) Probably missed the paladin so no damage done, or b) paladin got healed, so no damage done, or c) monster has an INT higher than 3 and realizes a+b will happen so never even goes after the paladin in the first place.

The solution is for DMs to play monsters like they're dumber than dirt, otherwise no monster in their right mind would engage the party let alone try to kill the hardest to hit and kill person in the party first.

Despite the kludgey and entirely irksome death-beams-with-no-save that paladins throw off, 4E has not mechanically solved the problem of making tanks, sorry, "defenders", sticky.

Except of course that it has solved this probled as has been described above. You might know this if you had actually played the game, but of course you have made it quite clear that you have thrown away your 4e books out of your distate for the game.

Paladins are not that much dramatically more difficult to hit then everyone else. Many monsters will hit you half the time, which is similar to the frequency they will hit somebody else if you have marked them. The fact that you will be healed is irrelevent because anyone they attack can be healed.

Given that you have made it clear how you will never play this game, it might be good if you stayed out of discussion of what actual gameplay is like.

 

[Foxen]

Mine run away and get more kobolds. Ya gotta be pretty stupid to attack someone bigger and stronger than you who has a 3 foot length of razor sharp steel in their hand.

Err... My kobolds often retreat or surrender...but they can't ALWAYS run away and get more kobolds...eventually, they run out of kobold warriors within their clan (and hence wy the wyrmpriest ran off to find another clan).

But more so...seriously, if every single monster AVOIDED the bigger shiny killing machine with three feet of razor sharp steel....how do these creatures ever function? My kobolds charge in, because as a clan, they follow the orders of their bosses...who yell and scream at them and punish them for not obeying their order! My kobolds, as a team (sorta) have taken down big bad bears and other large formidable foes through coordinated effort. My Dragonshield kobolds look for the biggest baddest hummie or stunty and charge them to retain their bada$$ reputation and remain high up on the ladder in the kobold social hierarchy.

If everyone or anyone was "stupid" to attack the bigger badder creature, heck, PC parties would fall apart as the fighters, paladins, and what nots charged and attacked the minions or squishy artillery guys or what-nots and left the brutes alone... I find it very selfish, and selfishness works on some level, but not when it comes to clan survival of kobold dogmen or goblin javelineers (except once when a kobold minion "shifted" out of being adjacent to a slybade cause he seen the slyblade use his comrades as living shields.

Fox

Ps, totally agree with HeapThaumaturgist's Wow lllustration.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Unless the monster's going to stop and do standard action Heal checks to see if the mage is dead, there's no visible differentiation between that and unconcious. So... if he wants to waste his attacks on an unmoving target while the rest of the party hits him, that seems like the less intelligent move from my perspective.

Heal does not allow you to determine if someone is dead or unconscious.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

The same question over and over

Once again, we on the 4th edition boards find ourselves debating the same old question - now under the guise of "can the Paladin actually stop things from hitting squishies?" The question, of course, is this:

What is good rules design? Is it a standard formula you crank through to get an intended result (I play a paladin - things can't get behind me because I'm a defender) or a toolkit aiding the players and GM in telling the story they wish to tell? (I play a paladin - I like to wade out into the middle of the foes and slow them down) It's a subtle but significant difference. Chess is superb rules design by the first definition; not so much by the second.

As for me, I line up in the second camp. If the encounter, in context of the greater narrative arc, feels like it should be a PC slaughterfest, the "bad guys" choose to avoid the penalties and slug it out with the defenders. If the encounter is intended to frustrate or create dramatic tension, then the heck with the penalties - that wizard/rogue/whatever is about to get mobbed.

 

[yu gnomi]

Problems with death prone characters aren't always the fault of rules or DM. Sometimes players are to blame.

Solution might be for strikers to not stay in one spot long enough to be seriously mauled. Even though this might mean they spend many turns not attacking, especially if they have no ranged attack to speak of.

If DM is attached to ruthlessly effective tactics, party needs to adapt. Maybe adding a Fighter to party, even an NPC Fighter, is proper fix.

 

[Regicide]

Except of course that it has solved this probled as has been described above. You might know this if you had actually played the game, but of course you have made it quite clear that you have thrown away your 4e books out of your distate for the game.

Paladins are not that much dramatically more difficult to hit then everyone else. Many monsters will hit you half the time, which is similar to the frequency they will hit somebody else if you have marked them.

Similar? In the atypical party where the wizard has done everything to increase AC and the PLD has done nothing. More likely the Paladin will be being hit 20% to 30% less often even counting the buff.

The fact that you will be healed is irrelevent because anyone they attack can be healed.

It matters a LOT who is being healed since different characters will have more HP and more healing surges. Have YOU even played 4E? I have. More HP means healing surges heal MORE per action spent activating them. Guess what, PLD comes out as being about the absolute worst target to put damage into with their greater HPs and number of surges compared to non-defenders, and thats BEFORE you consider the PLD can be buffing himself with temp hitpoints every single round.

Given that you have made it clear how you will never play this game, it might be good if you stayed out of discussion of what actual gameplay is like.

With a significantly greater likely hood of missing the PLD, and with the PLD healing significantly more per surge, and with the PLD able to toss on temp hit points at no surge cost at all. If your monsters are going after the PLD, then either the monsters are doing something stupid, or the DM is.

I mean, seriously, are you actually trying to argue that defenders are just as easy to kill as strikers or controllers? Really? Just... wow.

 

[Jhaelen]

Heal does not allow you to determine if someone is dead or unconscious.

What does, then? Or would you say it's impossible to determine?

 

[chaotix42]

My monsters won't specifically go after the defenders, unless of course they have a choice power that targets a suspected weaker defense score and/or can control the defender in some useful way.

Of course when the defenders are doing their job they're getting in the way of monsters going after the squishy PCs. For things such as the kobolds mentioned here, ignoring the defender and continuing to pursue softer targets could be a swifter death than standing and trying to face down the pesky ****blocker. If the kobold can gather some friends and get into some flanking positions they can do some real work on any PC.

My PCs are working their way through 2nd level at the moment, and the defenders have done their job well. When I get a chance I will usually rip into the rogue, ranger, and cleric. When the paladin, fighter, and warlord step in to disrupt my attacks then they get their turn, unless my sneaky monsters have some ability that lets them disengage and continue to pursue their original target. On more than one occasion the paladin and fighter have diverted coordinated assaults on the softer PCs and in turn dropped into the negatives for their troubles.

I'm satisfied with they way defenders work at the moment. In my experiences they've fulfilled their role quite well.

 

[chitzk0i]

...and with the PLD healing significantly more per surge,...

Are you really going to argue that monsters are aware of HP gain per surge spent statistics?